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A bit harsh?

O

onecut

Council Member
Do you think the following may be just a bit harsh in some instances? Yet as a Christian you are forced the recognize them all.......aren't you?

Old Testament Death Penalty Sins

There are forty-two death-penalty sins in the Old Testament:
Murder - Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14,20,23; Lev. 24:17,21; Num. 35:16-34; Deut. 19.
Failing to circumcise - Gen. 17:14; Ex. 4:24,25.
Eating leavened bread during feast of unleavened bread - Ex.2:15,19.
Smiting Parents- Ex. 21:15.
Kidnapping - Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7.
Cursing Parents - Ex. 21:17; Lev. 20:9.
Negligence with animals that kill - Ex. 21:28-32.
Witchcraft - Ex. 22:18.
Bestiality - Ex. 22:19; Lev. 18:23-29; 20:15,16.
Idolatry - Ex. 22:20.
Making holy anointing oil - Ex. 30:33.
Putting holy anointing oil on strangers - Ex. 30:33.
Making the holy perfume - Ex. 30:38.
Defiling the Sabbath - Ex. 31:14.
Working on the Sabbath - Ex. 35:2.
Eating the flesh of the peace offerings in
uncleanness - Lev. 7:20,21.
Eating the fat of sacrifices - Lev. 7:25.
Killing sacrifices other than at the door of the tabernacle - Lev. 17:1-9.
Eating blood - Lev. 17:10-14.
Incest - Lev. 18:6-29; 20:11-22.
Eating sacrifices at the wrong time - Lev. 19:5-8.
Consecration of children to idols - Lev. 20:1-5.
Spiritualism - Lev. 20:6,27.
Adultery - Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22-30.
Sodomy/Homosexuality - Lev. 20:13.
Relationship with a menstruous woman - Lev. 20:18.
Whoredom - Lev. 21:9; Deut. 22:21,22.
Sacrilege - Lev. 22:3.
Refusing to fast on day of atonement - Lev. 23:29.
Working on atonement - Lev. 23:30.
Blasphemy - Lev. 24:11-16.
Failure to keep the Passover - Num. 9:13.
Presumptuous - Num. 15:30,31.
Gathering firewood on the Sabbath - Num. 15:32,36.
Failure to purify self before worship - Num. 19:13,20.
False prophecy - Deut. 13:1-18; 18:20.
Leading men away from God - Deut. 13:6-18.
Stubbornness and rebelliousness - Deut. 21:18-23.
Gluttony - Deut. 21:20-23.
Drunkenness - Deut. 21:20-23.
Backbiting - Deut. 17:2-7.
False dreams and visions - Deut. 13:1-18.
 
I recognize them as part of our religious history.

Jesus Christ came and paid the death penalty.
What was worthy of death then is still worthy of death now. But Jesus paid the price of those who repent of their sins.... and God knows our heart. ... so repentance must be real. Ya can't scam God.

Thanks for this informative post. I hope people read it and take it to heart.
 
Some of these are still a sin. Some even still against the law. But none except murder (and kidnapping I believe) can be a death penalty. Like Jen said...Jesus paid the price to save us. Other than that, the majority of these mean little to us. These are historical facts.
 
onecut said:
Do you think the following may be just a bit harsh in some instances? Yet as a Christian you are forced the recognize them all.......aren't you?
Click to expand...
You're confusing commands given at the time and era, in certain circumstances, with commands to be followed throughout the ages.

Despite how "barbaric" you might view the actions from the comforts of your modern, first world luxury, the Israelites in the old Testament always acted more humane and moral than all others of the world at the time.
 
Mr. Friscus said:
You're confusing commands given at the time and era, in certain circumstances, with commands to be followed throughout the ages.

Despite how "barbaric" you might view the actions from the comforts of your modern, first world luxury, the Israelites in the old Testament always acted more humane and moral than all others of the world at the time.
Click to expand...
Jen said:
I recognize them as part of our religious history.

Jesus Christ came and paid the death penalty.
What was worthy of death then is still worthy of death now. But Jesus paid the price of those who repent of their sins.... and God knows our heart. ... so repentance must be real. Ya can't scam God.

Thanks for this informative post. I hope people read it and take it to heart.
Click to expand...

Jesus was a Jew. The Old Testament was his bible. He said (American King James version) "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

So how is it that these laws, which he came to fulfill are now considered, harsh and even in some cases cruel and immoral. I don't recall Jesus ever saying that he recanted any of these laws .

Can you? Or are we to ignore those things said by Jesus with which we no longer agree?
 
onecut said:
Jesus was a Jew. The Old Testament was his bible. He said (American King James version) "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

So how is it that these laws, which he came to fulfill are now considered, harsh and even in some cases cruel and immoral. I don't recall Jesus ever saying that he recanted any of these laws .

Can you? Or are we to ignore those things said by Jesus with which we no longer agree?
Click to expand...
The Laws are still in place.
The OT says that a Savior would be born to die in our stead.
Jesus fulfilled it in that way and he said so (as you reminded us here).
The price has been paid. We have to accept it for it to be ours.
It is that simple. If you haven't accepted Jesus as your Savior, then your penalty for any one of those things is death.
God created the world so he gets to set the rules.
 
Jen said:
The Laws are still in place.
The OT says that a Savior would be born to die in our stead.
Jesus fulfilled it in that way and he said so (as you reminded us here).
The price has been paid. We have to accept it for it to be ours.
It is that simple. If you haven't accepted Jesus as your Savior, then your penalty for any one of those things is death.
God created the world so he gets to set the rules.
Click to expand...

Do you really believe that gathering wood on the sabbath is a cause for death? Is that just for atheists or does it still apply to Christians. (of which there were none in the time of Jesus)

If Christ did "die for our sins" what exactly does that mean? Can I sin? If so, how bad may be the sin and how many times may I be forgiven? Are these original sins in the OT still operational? May I now gather wood on the sabbath without suffering a death penalty? If so, who said so?
 
onecut said:
Do you really believe that gathering wood on the sabbath is a cause for death? Is that just for atheists or does it still apply to Christians. (of which there were none in the time of Jesus)

If Christ did "die for our sins" what exactly does that mean? Can I sin? If so, how bad may be the sin and how many times may I be forgiven? Are these original sins in the OT still operational? May I now gather wood on the sabbath without suffering a death penalty? If so, who said so?
Click to expand...



i refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed...

get back to us when you have enough life experience to render an objective opinion...
 
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onecut said:
Do you really believe that gathering wood on the sabbath is a cause for death? Is that just for atheists or does it still apply to Christians. (of which there were none in the time of Jesus)

If Christ did "die for our sins" what exactly does that mean? Can I sin? If so, how bad may be the sin and how many times may I be forgiven? Are these original sins in the OT still operational? May I now gather wood on the sabbath without suffering a death penalty? If so, who said so?
Click to expand...

Those questions you ask are between you and God. But. You would be forgiven as many times as you ask for forgiveness.

Atheists have rejected God, so it really doesn't matter what they do beyond that rejection. God's back is to them (metaphorically speaking). Unless an atheist realizes God exists and turns to him, all sins become irrelevant beyond the initial rejection. And at the time of death and after....... there will be no God welcoming the atheist "home".
 
oicu812 said:
i refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed...

get back to us when you have enough life experience to render an objective opinion...
Click to expand...

I always appreciate a well thought out response even if it amouts to little more (as does yours) to "I don't know"
 
Jen said:
Those questions you ask are between you and God. But. You would be forgiven as many times as you ask for forgiveness.

Atheists have rejected God, so it really doesn't matter what they do beyond that rejection. God's back is to them (metaphorically speaking). Unless an atheist realizes God exists and turns to him, all sins become irrelevant beyond the initial rejection. And at the time of death and after....... there will be no God welcoming the atheist "home".
Click to expand...

I am quite aware of my place should your God exist. My question was not to him but to you. Your bible is a mass of contradictions and error. That is simply a fact that is admitted by all rational clergy and there is no easy way to say it

My question was how do you handle these errors.

It seems there are somewhere between 8,000 and 33,000 protestant denominations, each of them believing they are correct and often for no good reason. It would seem that the majority of these good and faithful folks are wrong. Sincerely wrong perhaps but still wrong. The bible commentaries, "explaining" the faith, in thousands of different ways, from thousands of viewpoints require thousands more pages than are in the bible itself. Maybe you can rationalize by saying there are small errors on the reader's part and all that matters is the "sincerity" of the believer. I believe I have heard anywhere from dozens to hundreds of explanations for the same discrepancies

I am not aware that the Bible makes any exception for error, sincere or not. It would seem that many of the faithful are in for a rude awakening. There are some denominations that will state that the child who has never been told of Christianity will be tossed into Hell with all the rest of the sinners.

How sure are you that you have it right?
 
onecut said:
I am quite aware of my place should your God exist. My question was not to him but to you. Your bible is a mass of contradictions and error. That is simply a fact that is admitted by all rational clergy and there is no easy way to say it

My question was how do you handle these errors.

It seems there are somewhere between 8,000 and 33,000 protestant denominations, each of them believing they are correct and often for no good reason. It would seem that the majority of these good and faithful folks are wrong. Sincerely wrong perhaps but still wrong. The bible commentaries, "explaining" the faith, in thousands of different ways, from thousands of viewpoints require thousands more pages than are in the bible itself. Maybe you can rationalize by saying there are small errors on the reader's part and all that matters is the "sincerity" of the believer. I believe I have heard anywhere from dozens to hundreds of explanations for the same discrepancies

I am not aware that the Bible makes any exception for error, sincere or not. It would seem that many of the faithful are in for a rude awakening. There are some denominations that will state that the child who has never been told of Christianity will be tossed into Hell with all the rest of the sinners.

How sure are you that you have it right?
Click to expand...

There are no errors in the Bible. It's my understanding that's not able to comprehend and wrap my mind around it. I came to this life with no memory of whatever was there before my earthly life and that's how it must be for me to fully experience mortality.

Remember that there were many authors of the books of the Bible so they are all speaking in their own words. Even if they were describing exactly the same thing to us, it might come across as if they were disjointed with each other. I might not understand much, but I do understand that.

I don't belong to any organized religions denomination. I have in the past. I don't now. They are all searching just as I am. Some of them are searching for God, others are searching for ways to control man. Some are doing both. It's a drama and power thing I choose not to deal with. Some denominations are more wrong than others.

I have a relationship with God. It is what it is. My relationship is as right as my present understanding allows it to be right now and every single day it grows a little. I learn. I would love to know everything now - or at least by the time I die, but I know that won't happen. After I die, then, I will know.

There is no reason to think I will have a "rude awakening". I won't.
 
Jen said:
There are no errors in the Bible. It's my understanding that's not able to comprehend and wrap my mind around it. I came to this life with no memory of whatever was there before my earthly life and that's how it must be for me to fully experience mortality.

Remember that there were many authors of the books of the Bible so they are all speaking in their own words. Even if they were describing exactly the same thing to us, it might come across as if they were disjointed with each other. I might not understand much, but I do understand that.

I don't belong to any organized religions denomination. I have in the past. I don't now. They are all searching just as I am. Some of them are searching for God, others are searching for ways to control man. Some are doing both. It's a drama and power thing I choose not to deal with. Some denominations are more wrong than others.

I have a relationship with God. It is what it is. My relationship is as right as my present understanding allows it to be right now and every single day it grows a little. I learn. I would love to know everything now - or at least by the time I die, but I know that won't happen. After I die, then, I will know.

There is no reason to think I will have a "rude awakening". I won't.
Click to expand...

Well, that about covers the ground as far as we are concerned. Your answer is a textbook demonstration of faith (belief with out proof) with just a bit of denial thrown in.

The bible is full of textual and conceptual errors, both large and small and that is a proven fact.
 
onecut said:
Well, that about covers the ground as far as we are concerned. Your answer is a textbook demonstration of faith (belief with out proof) with just a bit of denial thrown in.

The bible is full of textual and conceptual errors, both large and small and that is a proven fact.
Click to expand...
You can't live a day in your life without exercising faith in something.
We all choose what to have faith in. That you choose to throw out the [sic]bible based on what you see as "textual and conceptual errors" is just that - your choice. It doesn't in any way change what the truth of the Bible is. Perhaps you are right. But it's just as likely that you are wrong.
 
Jen said:
You can't live a day in your life without exercising faith in something.
We all choose what to have faith in. That you choose to throw out the [sic]bible based on what you see as "textual and conceptual errors" is just that - your choice. It doesn't in any way change what the truth of the Bible is. Perhaps you are right. But it's just as likely that you are wrong.
Click to expand...


Not about the contradictions and errors.
 
onecut said:
Do you think the following may be just a bit harsh in some instances? Yet as a Christian you are forced the recognize them all.......aren't you?

Old Testament Death Penalty Sins

There are forty-two death-penalty sins in the Old Testament:
Murder - Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14,20,23; Lev. 24:17,21; Num. 35:16-34; Deut. 19.
Failing to circumcise - Gen. 17:14; Ex. 4:24,25.
Eating leavened bread during feast of unleavened bread - Ex.2:15,19.
Smiting Parents- Ex. 21:15.
Kidnapping - Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7.
Cursing Parents - Ex. 21:17; Lev. 20:9.
Negligence with animals that kill - Ex. 21:28-32.
Witchcraft - Ex. 22:18.
Bestiality - Ex. 22:19; Lev. 18:23-29; 20:15,16.
Idolatry - Ex. 22:20.
Making holy anointing oil - Ex. 30:33.
Putting holy anointing oil on strangers - Ex. 30:33.
Making the holy perfume - Ex. 30:38.
Defiling the Sabbath - Ex. 31:14.
Working on the Sabbath - Ex. 35:2.
Eating the flesh of the peace offerings in
uncleanness - Lev. 7:20,21.
Eating the fat of sacrifices - Lev. 7:25.
Killing sacrifices other than at the door of the tabernacle - Lev. 17:1-9.
Eating blood - Lev. 17:10-14.
Incest - Lev. 18:6-29; 20:11-22.
Eating sacrifices at the wrong time - Lev. 19:5-8.
Consecration of children to idols - Lev. 20:1-5.
Spiritualism - Lev. 20:6,27.
Adultery - Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22-30.
Sodomy/Homosexuality - Lev. 20:13.
Relationship with a menstruous woman - Lev. 20:18.
Whoredom - Lev. 21:9; Deut. 22:21,22.
Sacrilege - Lev. 22:3.
Refusing to fast on day of atonement - Lev. 23:29.
Working on atonement - Lev. 23:30.
Blasphemy - Lev. 24:11-16.
Failure to keep the Passover - Num. 9:13.
Presumptuous - Num. 15:30,31.
Gathering firewood on the Sabbath - Num. 15:32,36.
Failure to purify self before worship - Num. 19:13,20.
False prophecy - Deut. 13:1-18; 18:20.
Leading men away from God - Deut. 13:6-18.
Stubbornness and rebelliousness - Deut. 21:18-23.
Gluttony - Deut. 21:20-23.
Drunkenness - Deut. 21:20-23.
Backbiting - Deut. 17:2-7.
False dreams and visions - Deut. 13:1-18.
Click to expand...
When the Going Gets Tough, the Tough Get Going

Sparta was more severe. That's why Sparta was strong a lot longer than most ancient states.
 
onecut said:
What has that to do with anything discussed here?
Click to expand...
Narrow and Shallow Postmodern Thought

The Hebrew patriarchs made up those rules to strengthen the Hebrew people. If you hadn't been dumbed down by robotic educational conformism, you'd see that other historical examples of that are not only relevant, they are necessary, too, in order to avoid isolating and disconnecting an example with the result that it proves nothing at all.
 
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