A simple question.

[fairsheet]

Since 1973, no American has been forced to join the military. If one makes a personal decision to join the military, they should be well aware of the probable consequences of that decision. Working people put their lives on the line every day to do the "dirty work" of catching our seafood and building our infrastructure, among other things. I know plenty of iron-workers, electricians, pipe-fitters and factory equipment operators who have died or been seriously injured in the line of duty. Do their lives have no meaning?

Since when should doing "dirty work" be glorified? And why?

A few points around this:

-Catching fish and building bridges are "good". Shooting people is "bad" - we Catholics would talk in terms of "sin". So, to the extent we ask these things of others, there's a fundamental difference.

-We have to ask ourselves if the fact of these people "volunteering", was the cause of our going to war, the fact of their presumably knowing what they were getting into, notwithstanding. In other words, had they not "volunteered", would we have had no standing army?...would we have had to decide against those wars?

-Is it really useful to assume that these "volunteers" actually volunteered to go shoot people? Or is it more likely that for most of them, it was simply the best opportunity our socioeconomy offered them, by way of a job, healthcare, and an education? Isn't someone like Pat Tillman the exception, rather than the rule?

 

[NightSwimmer]

-Catching fish and building bridges are "good". Shooting people is "bad" - we Catholics would talk in terms of "sin". So, to the extent we ask these things of others, there's a fundamental difference.

Okay. Fishing good -- killing bad. I've got that part down.

-We have to ask ourselves if the fact of these people "volunteering", was the cause of our going to war, the fact of their presumably knowing what they were getting into, notwithstanding. In other words, had they not "volunteered", would we have had no standing army?...would we have had to decide against those wars?

I am fully aware that enlisted soldiers don't make war policy. Thanks for the info anyway... I guess? One doesn't "volunteer" to join the military. It is a career decision. You get paid. If you don't understand what being a soldier entails, then you are making a very bad career decision by joining the military. At the risk of appearing condescending, I would like to emphasize that the US military exists primarily for the purpose of making war.

If we couldn't maintain a standing professional army, we would surely institute a draft, as we've done in the past. It is required for all young men of fighting age to register with the SS even now. Being drafted is quite different from joining the military by choice. Believe it or not, some folks actually want to be soldiers. If they don't, then they shouldn't choose the military as a career path.

Besides, my question didn't concern a moral judgment of any particular act of war. Do you mean to imply that "good" wars should be glorified, while "bad" wars shouldn't? Is that what Jesus taught?

-Is it really useful to assume that these "volunteers" actually volunteered to go shoot people? Or is it more likely that for most of them, it was simply the best opportunity our socioeconomy offered them, by way of a job, healthcare, and an education? Isn't someone like Pat Tillman the exception, rather than the rule?

I don't understand why it's "useful" to travel down any of these tangential lines of questioning, as opposed to simply replying to the question in my top-post.

 

[fairsheet]

From my perspective, these "tangential" lines of questioning go to your top question. And.....at the risk of sounding condescending, I'm put off by your effort to take "glorification" away from the volunteers, as if it's something we bestow upon them, rather than something we do for ourselves. And, to dismiss the very real choices WE offer the vast majority of the actual volunteers, as simple "career choices", is somewhat akin (just a little hyperbolically) to those who would suggest that say....the poor, inner-city, single-parent, kid-of-color had a choice - he didn't HAVE to sell drugs. He could've kept his nose to all those grindstones and graduated mucho cum louday.....

I'm all FOR the reinstitution of a draft. Our nation and the world aren't yet prepared for the U.S. to go precipitously Quaker. I think a draft would do wonders for our young people AND for our choices around going to war or not. But...imho, a draft actually offers up more alternatives, rather than less. Draftees can choose to up and leave. Volunteers...as contradictory as it may sound, cannot. For the MOST part - your allusions to those desperate to "fight, kill, pillage" notwithstanding - those who volunteer aren't perceiving a better choice.

 

[NightSwimmer]

If you aren't comfortable with answering the question, then you certainly don't have to.

 

[fairsheet]

If you aren't comfortable with answering the question, then you certainly don't have to.

Uh oh....I'm sorry about my pissiness. But, I still think I am answering the question.

 

[JV-12]

No, MaryAnne. I had no specific person in mind, although I have witnessed both individuals and religious organizations engaging in behavior that could only be construed as glorification of war.

I would say that it is appropriate for followers of Odin to glorify war. Celebrating military conquest aligns with their dogma.

You are implying that those of a Christian bent are more likely to glorify war than those who do not claim to be Christian. That is my take. It’s baloney of course.

I can tell you this. I am vehemently angered and nauseated with pacifists and anti-war crowd who revile returning soldiers from Viet Nam or Iraq or Afghansitan, simply because those soldiers were part of a war and part of killing. There is no Christianity in that behavior, it is deplorable, if not evil.

So to answer your question --- virtually no one glorifies war. Christianity glorifies sacrifice and bravery, and soldiers who fight for a great cause are to be greatly honored. End of story.

Some wars are just, and we are to be grateful for having fought the war. Do I have to provide a list? Christians are free and clear of sin if they are killing other soldiers in a just war. So are non-Christians.

That song you linked was absolutely putrid. And had nothing to do with your question. Do you have a problem with people wearing a U.S. flag pin? I have a great problem with cowardsl like Barabar Boxer and Nancy Pelosi refusing to wear one.

 

[NightSwimmer]

You don't have to answer the question either, if it makes you uncomfortable. You won't be alone.

Perhaps you could, instead, presume that I meant to ask something other than what I actually asked.