About Hiroshima.

[Gramps]

Perhaps it was merely another day of infamy! But it occurred. It was probably the tool that opened lots of eyes to what war is or can become. Nagasaki need not have happened had smarter men been in charge in Japan. But it also occurred.

I am going to make a statement that I doubt anyone else on these boards can make.

I overflew Hiroshima on September 1st, 1945 enroute to Atsugi AFB in Japan for our initial landing to take over a defeated nation. Among many thing I have seen nothing can compare to the waste I viewed from several thousand feet in the air that day. It was breathtaking. It was awesome. It put the fear of God in men who previously to that feared nothing. And while we gawked at this unprecidented sight not a word passed between us. All of us sat stone-faced and just stared. I cannot say what the others on that flight thought but I can say that my mind wandered and wondered in the same stroke of time what warfare held in the future.

I, for one, benefitted from the ordeal. I have no doubts about that. And I do know after reading top secret documents following the war that our expected loss of life when invading Japan might well have included my name on the roster.

So be it.

Gramps

 

[NCmusicman]

Mind boggling.... I recently watched several of The World at War Series reuns from the 70's... several scenes were about how the Germans accepted fascism and dictatorship and nation worship of leader Hitler... I see some on the same traits in the 1930's as to how Democrats people are admiring Obama as he institutes his brand of executive dictatorship and the liberals in Congresss initiate / promote the fascism.

Very sobering.

Perhaps it was merely another day of infamy! But it occurred. It was probably the tool that opened lots of eyes to what war is or can become. Nagasaki need not have happened had smarter men been in charge in Japan. But it also occurred.

I am going to make a statement that I doubt anyone else on these boards can make.

I overflew Hiroshima on September 1st, 1945 enroute to Atsugi AFB in Japan for our initial landing to take over a defeated nation. Among many thing I have seen nothing can compare to the waste I viewed from several thousand feet in the air that day. It was breathtaking. It was awesome. It put the fear of God in men who previously to that feared nothing. And while we gawked at this unprecidented sight not a word passed between us. All of us sat stone-faced and just stared. I cannot say what the others on that flight thought but I can say that my mind wandered and wondered in the same stroke of time what warfare held in the future.

I, for one, benefitted from the ordeal. I have no doubts about that. And I do know after reading top secret documents following the war that our expected loss of life when invading Japan might well have included my name on the roster.

So be it.

Gramps

 

[Gramps]

The Geermany of then and the U. S. of today share little if any likenesses. There was so much more that contributed to Hitler's success that it's a crying shame how little the historians recall. And, with all due respect, I think your response is off topic but, so be it.

Gramps

Mind boggling.... I recently watched several of The World at War Series reuns from the 70's... several scenes were about how the Germans accepted fascism and dictatorship and nation worship of leader Hitler... I see some on the same traits in the 1930's as to how Democrats people are admiring Obama as he institutes his brand of executive dictatorship and the liberals in Congresss initiate / promote the fascism.

Very sobering.

 

[tobaccoroad]

Mind boggling.... I recently watched several of The World at War Series reuns from the 70's... several scenes were about how the Germans accepted fascism and dictatorship and nation worship of leader Hitler... I see some on the same traits in the 1930's as to how Democrats people are admiring Obama as he institutes his brand of executive dictatorship and the liberals in Congresss initiate / promote the fascism.

Very sobering.

You just ain't sh!ttin. NC I bin watching them for some time, the little kiddies egged on by their teachers singin the praises of Obowma! Obowma! If you had any inkling of what went on in Germany at that time, you had to be alarmed. As people are wont to say, "History is prone to repeating itself"
Gramps, did you have a chance to overfly Tokyo, post the March 9th, 1945 fireraid as well when the Fifth burned twelve square miles of Tokyo to the ground. Only some four square miles of Hiroshima was supposedly leveled by the bomb blast, three in Nagasaki. The 1891 foot detonation height for the bomb over Hiroshima was a serendipitous finding, any higher or lower, according to a reliable source, the Japanese would have laughed at us and said "So what!You've got a hot bomb!" and kept on fighting. If the bombardier at Nagasaki had simply missed his aiming point, as has been claimed, the area of destruction after the detonation should have been roughly equal. The fact that it wasn't implies they missed the optimal height at detonation as well.
NC, did you catch the show where, I believe it was Curtis LeMay, discussed, as example, the Marines trapping a large contingent of Japanese on Guadalcanal, offering them the opportunity to surrender, which the Japanese refused, forcing the Marines to slaughter each one down to a man. (Guadalcanal-8/7/1942-2/43). The Fifth also burned 65 other Japanese cities to the ground besides Tokyo. Most of the Japanese Military Officers in 1945 still felt the only honorable thing to do was to fight to the last Japanese rather than surrender. Truman did the right thing
The "Greatest Generation" did nothing less than save the world, Western Civilization, Christianity, and Judaism. We who followed them haven't acquitted ourselves nearly as well. I feel a personal obligation to make sure Americans don't forget.

 

[Gramps]

I doubt any American overflew Tokyo immeddiately following that raid. The ones who flew the raid were commendable and probably the only ones who saw anything of the waste they laid. I have to tell you that when I saw Tokyo and Yokohama from ground level when we came rolling into town on Sept. 2nd I could hardly believe those people held out as long as they did. The cities were a wasteland in many parts and it was incredible that they even had a way of life left to pursue. And I wondered at the time exactly how they would go about accepting defeat and rebuilding their country BUT by gum they did it and we were instrumental in them getting it done. I was there the first fifteen months and saw a nation change from as fuedal society to a democracy. I think WWII was the first time in history that the victor didn't divide the spoils but contributed to them. It's an amazing story that fooled both them and us.

Gramps

You just ain't sh!ttin. NC I bin watching them for some time, the little kiddies egged on by their teachers singin the praises of Obowma! Obowma! If you had any inkling of what went on in Germany at that time, you had to be alarmed. As people are wont to say, "History is prone to repeating itself"
Gramps, did you have a chance to overfly Tokyo, post the March 9th, 1945 fireraid as well when the Fifth burned twelve square miles of Tokyo to the ground. Only some four square miles of Hiroshima was supposedly leveled by the bomb blast, three in Nagasaki. The 1891 foot detonation height for the bomb over Hiroshima was a serendipitous finding, any higher or lower, according to a reliable source, the Japanese would have laughed at us and said "So what!You've got a hot bomb!" and kept on fighting. If the bombardier at Nagasaki had simply missed his aiming point, as has been claimed, the area of destruction after the detonation should have been roughly equal. The fact that it wasn't implies they missed the optimal height at detonation as well.
NC, did you catch the show where, I believe it was Curtis LeMay, discussed, as example, the Marines trapping a large contingent of Japanese on Guadalcanal, offering them the opportunity to surrender, which the Japanese refused, forcing the Marines to slaughter each one down to a man. (Guadalcanal-8/7/1942-2/43). The Fifth also burned 65 other Japanese cities to the ground besides Tokyo. Most of the Japanese Military Officers in 1945 still felt the only honorable thing to do was to fight to the last Japanese rather than surrender. Truman did the right thing
The "Greatest Generation" did nothing less than save the world, Western Civilization, Christianity, and Judaism. We who followed them haven't acquitted ourselves nearly as well. I feel a personal obligation to make sure Americans don't forget.

 

[NCmusicman]

Gen Lemay was a tremendous American hero... Yes, I saw that segment and the sheer brutality of the Japanese was soemthin every American should see.

It remindes me of todays liberals that are so idealogically hateful against the USA - they are tearing Oakland apart, the DOJ has piles of dead bodies in a anti-Armed Citizen assault ... the Dems are working the Goebels propaganda to maximum effect, could easily be swayed into a strong round of fanatic brutality... Obama has adopted a "Top Dowm Bottom Up Inside Out" Van Jones strategy planned for his second term and it will be brutal if he is re-elected. ... the liberal current events are nothing short of sub-human attacks & the Dems have the crazies on the edge.

You just ain't sh!ttin. NC I bin watching them for some time, the little kiddies egged on by their teachers singin the praises of Obowma! Obowma! If you had any inkling of what went on in Germany at that time, you had to be alarmed. As people are wont to say, "History is prone to repeating itself"
Gramps, did you have a chance to overfly Tokyo, post the March 9th, 1945 fireraid as well when the Fifth burned twelve square miles of Tokyo to the ground. Only some four square miles of Hiroshima was supposedly leveled by the bomb blast, three in Nagasaki. The 1891 foot detonation height for the bomb over Hiroshima was a serendipitous finding, any higher or lower, according to a reliable source, the Japanese would have laughed at us and said "So what!You've got a hot bomb!" and kept on fighting. If the bombardier at Nagasaki had simply missed his aiming point, as has been claimed, the area of destruction after the detonation should have been roughly equal. The fact that it wasn't implies they missed the optimal height at detonation as well.
NC, did you catch the show where, I believe it was Curtis LeMay, discussed, as example, the Marines trapping a large contingent of Japanese on Guadalcanal, offering them the opportunity to surrender, which the Japanese refused, forcing the Marines to slaughter each one down to a man. (Guadalcanal-8/7/1942-2/43). The Fifth also burned 65 other Japanese cities to the ground besides Tokyo. Most of the Japanese Military Officers in 1945 still felt the only honorable thing to do was to fight to the last Japanese rather than surrender. Truman did the right thing
The "Greatest Generation" did nothing less than save the world, Western Civilization, Christianity, and Judaism. We who followed them haven't acquitted ourselves nearly as well. I feel a personal obligation to make sure Americans don't forget.

 

[ARMCX1]

Gramps you often blow me away with your posts. This one is no exception.

 

[KnotaFrayed]

Perhaps it was merely another day of infamy! But it occurred. It was probably the tool that opened lots of eyes to what war is or can become. Nagasaki need not have happened had smarter men been in charge in Japan. But it also occurred.

I am going to make a statement that I doubt anyone else on these boards can make.

I overflew Hiroshima on September 1st, 1945 enroute to Atsugi AFB in Japan for our initial landing to take over a defeated nation. Among many thing I have seen nothing can compare to the waste I viewed from several thousand feet in the air that day. It was breathtaking. It was awesome. It put the fear of God in men who previously to that feared nothing. And while we gawked at this unprecidented sight not a word passed between us. All of us sat stone-faced and just stared. I cannot say what the others on that flight thought but I can say that my mind wandered and wondered in the same stroke of time what warfare held in the future.

I, for one, benefitted from the ordeal. I have no doubts about that. And I do know after reading top secret documents following the war that our expected loss of life when invading Japan might well have included my name on the roster.

So be it.

Gramps

Gramps we have been over this before and as you probably know, while there are not a lot of people who fought in the war and flew over or were actually in the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki still alive to offer their own points of view. I have heard both, from friends and relatives who were as close or closer to the events than you. They are not living now, but I can relate their thoughts were both along your line of thought and the lines of thought offered by people like Einstein, Wigner, Szilard and Franck from the scientific community and Eisenhower, MacArthur, Clarke, Admiral's Leahy and Nimitz who did not agree the atomic bombs needed to or should have been used.

I am sure the disagreement over events that no one will ever be able to prove for an accurate judgment (knowing the outcome of both using them and not using them.) No one can take away the subjective thoughts of anyone not wishing to be on the list of KIA, but there is an objectivity to the use of such weapons and firebombing upon civilians while at the same time decrying the same.

There were over 100,000 KI the A in a matter of days as a result of the use of such weapons, many of the civilians, many children. Then comes the question of whether we would see the use of such weapons upon our soil with the same justifications by the users as saving many more lives than it took. Judging by the reaction of Americans to Pearl Harbor and 9/11/01 and the relative number of deaths, I wouldn't believe we would see others using a nuclear weapon upon us for the justification of saving many more future lives than the weapons would take of Americans, perhaps some others would.

Yes, dilemma's and conundrums are faced where no answer is a good one, but since that time we have faced a number of concerns and consequences as a result. Iran now wants the same weapons we have. Who wouldn't really, based on our uni-lateral move into Iraq. Until a certain point in the development of nuclear power versus weapons development, we can't be absolutely certain Iran is developing weapons, but let's assume they are. Why would we assume they would develop them to use them and if they did, isn't that what we did? We didn't develop them, then let them sit idle. There is the other possibility that Iran wants a bargaining tool, the same as we have, Israel and other nuclear powers have and instead of doing what we did (use the weapons) they want them as a means to deter an invasion of them in the same way as we invaded Iraq.

In addition, for a nation that prides itself in a "right to keep and bear arms" regardless of how that might be qualified or prefaced, why arms control, why shouldn't all nations of the world be able to "Keep and bear" whatever arms they like, the same as us?

I recognize both points of view and hold no bad feelings about those who saw the use of the bombs as "necessary" to save more lives than they took. A comfort to those "saved", not meaningful at all to those who "lost" their lives or loved ones in that lottery who pays with their lives to "save" others.

I don't believe it is matter of being a "peacenik" or patriotic as you know the men listed as being opposed to the use of the bombs would be hard to characterize as "peaceniks" or unpatriotic. I think you might also agree that while they were in the same line of fire as yourself and others, they were responsible for your life and the lives of many many others. Not something they took lightly.

Hope you and your spouse are doing super well Gramps!
All the very best, Knot

 

[LeRoy_Was_Here]

Hi, Gramps. Very thought-provoking post, as per your usual. One of my uncles was one of the men who loaded 'Little Boy' onto the Enola Gay. Those guys were told it was some kind of new-fangled 'special' bomb, but knew nothing more than that.

My uncle was not an admirable man. He was a terrible bigot, and I got to the point where I couldn't even stand talking to him. But he was one of those guys.

It's a shame that NCMusicMan has come along and hijacked your thread with his typical Obama = Hitler brand of wild-eyed irrationalism.

 

[Zoar]

Mind boggling.... I recently watched several of The World at War Series reuns from the 70's... several scenes were about how the Germans accepted fascism and dictatorship and nation worship of leader Hitler... I see some on the same traits in the 1930's as to how Democrats people are admiring Obama as he institutes his brand of executive dictatorship and the liberals in Congresss initiate / promote the fascism.

Very sobering.

Methinks you were asleep during the BUSH/CHENEY Reign of Fascism and TERROR. If you said anything derogatory about BUSH OR THE Gov, you were threatened that someone would visit you in the night.

Kapich?

 

[Zoar]

And yes, Gramps, really vital and thought provoking posts.

Thany YOU!

You are the kind of man i think many of us on this forum would want to share coffee with, or a beer!