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About that second amendment....

Wahbooz

Governor
What if people were told the Supreme Court decision, and written by Justice Scalia in DC, et al, V Heller, was that the Second Amendment stated:

There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s right of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v. Williams, 553 U. S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose. Before turning to limitations uponthe individual right, however, we must determine whether the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment comports with our interpretation of the operative clause.

They went on from there to discuss the other portions of the Second Amendment, such as Militias. But the 'right to bear arms' was not unlimited, meaning there is no protection for an unlimited amount or type of 'arm'; i.e., that can be limited by law.

You can read all 157 pages of the opinion here:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf
 
I think the courts go overboard in limiting First Amendment rights. There's a danger they could do so with the Second Amendment as well.
 
So the Supreme Courts decision was:

In sum, we hold that the District’s ban on handgun possession in the home violates the Second Amendment, as does its prohibition against rendering any lawful firearm in the home operable for the purpose of immediate self-defense. Assuming that Heller is not disqualified from the exercise of Second Amendment rights, the District must permit him to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home.

Point of interest, there is a "disqualification from the exercise of Second Amendment rights", and there is such a thing as a "lawful firearm", meaning there is such a thing as an unlawful firearm. So the Supreme court did not affirm an open right to any and all firearms.
 
I think to some extent it comes down to policy preferences. I prefer not to live in a society where people can legally own a gun/ammo combo that is capable of shooting dozens of bullets in a short span of time, so I interpret the Second Amendment to allow prohibition of those sorts of weapons. But I also prefer not to live in a society where the government requires registration of all guns, so I interpret the Second Amendment to prohibit general registration. Others may find it cynical, but I think the Constitution, like any text, is contested territory by nature and malleable to subjective interpretations based on factors extraneous to the document itself.
 
Right on the first part, wrong on the second part, at least as how I see the SC decision. they upheld gun registration, but they also affirmed there the second amendment was not an unlimited right. Congress can create amendments to the Constitution, with a 2/3 majority, but it takes a 3/4 majority of states to ratify an amendment. So Congress has it's power, and the states, i.e. "We the people" to ratify; but the SC has the trump card and can determine what the interpretation is.
 
What if people were told the Supreme Court decision, and written by Justice Scalia in DC, et al, V Heller, was that the Second Amendment stated:

There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s right of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v. Williams, 553 U. S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose. Before turning to limitations uponthe individual right, however, we must determine whether the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment comports with our interpretation of the operative clause.

They went on from there to discuss the other portions of the Second Amendment, such as Militias. But the 'right to bear arms' was not unlimited, meaning there is no protection for an unlimited amount or type of 'arm'; i.e., that can be limited by law.

You can read all 157 pages of the opinion here:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

Hey Wahbooz,
Justice Breyer, amongst the dissenting minority (by a single justice) provided some of the best thoughts I have read and it seems only a matter of time before a case comes before the SCOTUS that will cause them to either reverse their thoughts on the "well regulated Militia"/common defense/"necessary to the security of a free state" connection or referse themselves on their thoughts that "shall not be infringed" means something other than "shall not be infringed" when it comes to the suggestion that one cannot infringe upon a personal right to self-defense (which not a single word is mentioned about in the 2nd Amendment or the Constitution), but somehow can infringe upon it at the same time by infringing upon the types of arms one keeps and bears for "personal self defense" (which is not the subject of the 2nd Amendment, "arms", a well-regulated Militia and that which is deemed "necessary to the security of a free state is)

Breyer suggests that something will arise that will cast the latest majority opinions to entrap themselves and end up in what he calls "circular reasoning" that was not the intent of the founders of this nation.

It is interesting to note that the NRA is actually fearful of court cases, especally ones that reach the SCOTUS.

Even if one interprets the 2nd Amendment as being attached to "Well regulated Militia" it being deemed what is "necessary to the security of a free state" and howver, in any one era, "Well regulated Militia" is defined by Congress, kept and selected by the individual states, both Heller and McDonald decisions make sense, but for the notion that the right to keep and bear arms is not directly related to "the common defense" and that which is necessary to it.

As long as there are American citizen soldiers in service to and engaged in the common defense of their individual states or the nation, a complete ban on arms, federally or by state, would defeat their very purpose and provide the potential for them to be rendered useless.

I believe most Americans would be happy to know that there are state's National Guard members in their midst and would not suggest allowing any avenue to ban their ability to keep and bear the arms they would need to best conduct and execute an effective common defense or "security to a free state". The notion that gun control is a lead in to a ban on all firearms is paranoia and even if it wasn't the argument that if guns were banned, only criminals would have them negates the reasoning that people would somehow be left without firearms were their government to suddenly become tyrannical.

Under such a circumstance, they need only look to the same black market they say all the criminals get their guns from, aside from those stolen from people who bought them with little restriction or the purchases made by "law abiding citizens" who are not criminals at the time of purchse, legitimately buy their weapons with few restrictions before they use them to commit a crime.

In addition, the suggestion of "common use" has to refer to what, if not a military or "common defense" sort of use as there is no "common use" arms defined for individual self-defense and even if there were, would assault weapons fit into a "common use" category for individual self-defense?

People don't seem to know the history of the "well-regulated Militia" in this nation. The law to make it the duty of all able bodied free white men between the ages of 18 and 45 and to furnish one's own firearms failed over time to gain honor to it. There was little collective interest in attending training and loosely formed Militia of citizens who didn't take their duty or training seriously caused the federal government to form what it was reluctant to rely on in discussions at its founding and that was a standing military. George Washington on looking back at the use of local miliita during the revolution pointed to their unreliability and that was with citizen soldiers who at least had some minimal formation and training in the use of firearms. Currently, the vast majority of Americans are not required to train as a fighting force that would be significantly effective on any level, even to the point of the militia used in the Revolutionary War.

The whole idea of a "common defense" and the use of militia, was to maintain some level of proficiency and effectiveness as a fighting force. People that have never met one another, much less trained with arms and one another to put up a common and effective defense for their state or their nation and people with no organized or "well regulated" structure, will be routed very quickly by forces who do have organization, chosen leaders and training to fight in concert with one another.

It only makes sense that the 2nd Amendment is tied to the common defense and what is deemed necessary to that, a well-regulated (as opposed to an unorganized miliitia or a rag tag bunch of citizens, even if they label themselves as "militia"). If a "well-regulated Militia is defined as those who have volunteered or as all U.S, citizens who are legally bound to duty, that organization and those defined by it, are the subject of whose "right to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. All others can have their right to keep any and all arms infringed, because not only are they not bound or connected in any way to the common defense, they are not thought of as any sort of effective or significant common defense without duty and training as members of a "well regulated Militia". As we know, an individual with a fiream, even if they are trained how to use it, are not necesarily an effective defense for themselves or anyone else or without risk of injury or death to themselves or those around them based on their keeping or bearing firearms. Individuals who simply purchase a firearm and stick it loaded in their bedsde drawer, the best way to ensure it is an effective means of defense (When under attack or imminent threat, rummaging for one's weapon or having to unlock it from a case or closet then find and load ammunition is perhaps not very effective in deterring one's attackers or threat) may be most effectively ready "in case", but they have also increased the risk of injury to themselves or someone in their household and with no training, are at increased risk of hurting themselves or someone else, either by accident or in the heat of anger or depression.

"Arms" ownership is not a right, unless one owns arms in the interest and in service and duty to "the common defense" and that which is "necessary to the security of a free state". For all others, it is as Anton Scalia explained, a granted "right" that can in fact be limited or infringed upon.

One might note that a number of the latter Amendments actually confer rights, something we have heard some people here claim cannot be done.
 
They certainly left that open to interpretation in the last paragraph of their decision. My interest was in their decision that this 'right' is not unlimited.
 
What if you actually were able to think like an adult person.

What if people were told the Supreme Court decision, and written by Justice Scalia in DC, et al, V Heller, was that the Second Amendment stated:

There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s right of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v. Williams, 553 U. S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose. Before turning to limitations uponthe individual right, however, we must determine whether the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment comports with our interpretation of the operative clause.

They went on from there to discuss the other portions of the Second Amendment, such as Militias. But the 'right to bear arms' was not unlimited, meaning there is no protection for an unlimited amount or type of 'arm'; i.e., that can be limited by law.

You can read all 157 pages of the opinion here:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf
 
What if people were told the Supreme Court decision, and written by Justice Scalia in DC, et al, V Heller, was that the Second Amendment stated:

There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s right of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v. Williams, 553 U. S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose. Before turning to limitations uponthe individual right, however, we must determine whether the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment comports with our interpretation of the operative clause.

They went on from there to discuss the other portions of the Second Amendment, such as Militias. But the 'right to bear arms' was not unlimited, meaning there is no protection for an unlimited amount or type of 'arm'; i.e., that can be limited by law.

You can read all 157 pages of the opinion here:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

Just another citation out of context that ignores the overall finding in Heller -- that the right is an individual right to own arms for lawful purposes, and that governments can't create bans of commonly owned and used firearms.

That overall view expressed in Heller was reinforced in McDonald, which subjects firearms restrictions to the "strict scrutiny" standard as required for the exercise of other civil rights such as speech, press and religion. You can cite out of context to your heart's content. You can attempt to fold, spindle and mutilate the findings in those cases, but you cannot change the findings themselves.
 
Hey Wahbooz,
Justice Breyer, amongst the dissenting minority (by a single justice) provided some of the best thoughts I have read and it seems only a matter of time before a case comes before the SCOTUS that will cause them to either reverse their thoughts on the "well regulated Militia"/common defense/"necessary to the security of a free state" connection or referse themselves on their thoughts that "shall not be infringed" means something other than "shall not be infringed" when it comes to the suggestion that one cannot infringe upon a personal right to self-defense (which not a single word is mentioned about in the 2nd Amendment or the Constitution), but somehow can infringe upon it at the same time by infringing upon the types of arms one keeps and bears for "personal self defense" (which is not the subject of the 2nd Amendment, "arms", a well-regulated Militia and that which is deemed "necessary to the security of a free state is
)

Who cares if the decision was "by a single vote." Helvering v. Davis and Wickard v. Filburn, which together set up the constitutional underpinnings for the modern welfare state, were both 5-4 decisions, as were a half-dozen others from the New Deal era. A 5-4 vote in SCOTUS means a majority vote in SCOTUS, period -- and in Heller and MacDonald, the court rejected the concept that firearms ownership must be linked to militia service. Both rulings make that statement explicitly, Heller specificly noting that in all other cases where the Constitution refers to a right of the people, the codified right is an individual, not collective, right.

Where you err most completely, however, is in saying that every firearms restriction is an infringement. The truth is, from a legal standpoint, we do not know how far a gun restriction may go before it becomes a constitutional infringement on the right -- both cases leave that open to future court rulings.


Breyer suggests that something will arise that will cast the latest majority opinions to entrap themselves and end up in what he calls "circular reasoning" that was not the intent of the founders of this nation.

Breyer is plainly wrong on this, but it's a moot point as Breyer's comments lack the force of the majority.


Even if one interprets the 2nd Amendment as being attached to "Well regulated Militia" it being deemed what is "necessary to the security of a free state" and howver, in any one era, "Well regulated Militia" is defined by Congress, kept and selected by the individual states, both Heller and McDonald decisions make sense, but for the notion that the right to keep and bear arms is not directly related to "the common defense" and that which is necessary to it.

The court rejected this

As long as there are American citizen soldiers in service to and engaged in the common defense of their individual states or the nation, a complete ban on arms, federally or by state, would defeat their very purpose and provide the potential for them to be rendered useless.

Ownership of arms is unconnected from being a "citizen soldier" in pursuit of the common defense of the individual state or the nation. One can own guns because they like they way they look in the gun case, or because they like to hunt, or because they desire to use them for self-defense, or for any other lawful purpose. Their ownership is NOT linked to the "common defense" in any way.

I will elide the rest of your post, as it merely continues to attempt to link individual arms ownership to the militia clause --a link specifically rejected by the Supreme Court, save to say that your final statement is wrong. Our rights are not derived from the Constituiton. Rather it is we the people, in possession of our rights, who created the Constitution. Our rights pre-dated that creation.
 
)

Who cares if the decision was "by a single vote." Helvering v. Davis and Wickard v. Filburn, which together set up the constitutional underpinnings for the modern welfare state, were both 5-4 decisions, as were a half-dozen others from the New Deal era. A 5-4 vote in SCOTUS means a majority vote in SCOTUS, period -- and in Heller and MacDonald, the court rejected the concept that firearms ownership must be linked to militia service. Both rulings make that statement explicitly, Heller specificly noting that in all other cases where the Constitution refers to a right of the people, the codified right is an individual, not collective, right.

Where you err most completely, however, is in saying that every firearms restriction is an infringement. The truth is, from a legal standpoint, we do not know how far a gun restriction may go before it becomes a constitutional infringement on the right -- both cases leave that open to future court rulings.




Breyer is plainly wrong on this, but it's a moot point as Breyer's comments lack the force of the majority.




The court rejected this



Ownership of arms is unconnected from being a "citizen soldier" in pursuit of the common defense of the individual state or the nation. One can own guns because they like they way they look in the gun case, or because they like to hunt, or because they desire to use them for self-defense, or for any other lawful purpose. Their ownership is NOT linked to the "common defense" in any way.

I will elide the rest of your post, as it merely continues to attempt to link individual arms ownership to the militia clause --a link specifically rejected by the Supreme Court, save to say that your final statement is wrong. Our rights are not derived from the Constituiton. Rather it is we the people, in possession of our rights, who created the Constitution. Our rights pre-dated that creation.


Damn good post, trap, but I fear it's going to fall on deaf ears....
 
Here's another point of interest: "the District must permit him to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home."

Heller sanctioned DC gun registrations.
 
I don't think anyone thinks they have a right to own a anti-aircraft battery or a nuke. Reasonable people understand the 2nd amendment as a protection of the right we have for self defense. The liberal meme that NRA members would like unfettered access to bazookas is a straw man.
 
I think to some extent it comes down to policy preferences. I prefer not to live in a society where people can legally own a gun/ammo combo that is capable of shooting dozens of bullets in a short span of time, so I interpret the Second Amendment to allow prohibition of those sorts of weapons. But I also prefer not to live in a society where the government requires registration of all guns, so I interpret the Second Amendment to prohibit general registration. Others may find it cynical, but I think the Constitution, like any text, is contested territory by nature and malleable to subjective interpretations based on factors extraneous to the document itself.

Given what was, frankly, abysmally poor legal drafting, the second amendment invites us to interpret it according to our wishes. You could interpret it so narrowly that all it does is permit National Guard members to have firearms prescribed by their states, or you could interpret it so widely that it permits any person to bear any kind of arm in any setting. Pretty much nobody goes to either extreme. We all decide what we, personally, think is practical and desirable, and set limits around that. It's just that liberals and centrists tend to be most honest about what they're doing, while conservatives like to pretend their own personal choices on the topic were somehow foreordained by clear guidance in the amendment itself. I think that if we could all just be honest that we were doing a cost/benefit analysis to fine tune the rules within a very broad range of plausible Constitutional interpretations, we could get down to a much more practical and productive debate.
 
Libs going after registration/confiscation, just as predicted. That's why we resist against ANY new firearms laws, you people can't control your tyrannical urges...
 
Just another citation out of context that ignores the overall finding in Heller -- that the right is an individual right to own arms for lawful purposes, and that governments can't create bans of commonly owned and used firearms.

That overall view expressed in Heller was reinforced in McDonald, which subjects firearms restrictions to the "strict scrutiny" standard as required for the exercise of other civil rights such as speech, press and religion. You can cite out of context to your heart's content. You can attempt to fold, spindle and mutilate the findings in those cases, but you cannot change the findings themselves.

That's such shoddy legal reasoning that it's embarrassing. It's circular: some kinds of firearms are "commonly owned and used" because they've never been banned, and they can't be banned because they're "commonly owned and used." What rubbish. Of course, by that reasoning, Congress could, if it wanted, ban all new firearms designs... by definition, anything that hasn't existed before can't be commonly owned and used, and if every new design is banned from the outset, no new design will ever be commonly owned and used. I'm not arguing in favor of such a law -- just pointing out the absurd application of a legal opinion written by a braying cretin.
 
I don't think anyone thinks they have a right to own a anti-aircraft battery or a nuke. Reasonable people understand the 2nd amendment as a protection of the right we have for self defense. The liberal meme that NRA members would like unfettered access to bazookas is a straw man.

Everybody agrees we have to draw the line somewhere in between a black-powder musket, on the one end, and an H-bomb, on the other end. We just disagree on where, in that vast gulf, we draw the line. Some would draw it at single-shot rifles. Others would draw it at heavy machine guns. I think there's a productive debate to be had on deciding where, exactly, the cost/benefit balance tilts.

That said, I don't think everyone agrees that it's a right we have for self defense... including the drafters of the amendment, who make no mention of self defense, but do mention defense of the state. From that perspective anti-aircraft batteries and bazookas may actually be more useful. If you want to defend the state against, say, a military coup, an AK-47 is going to be only marginally useful, and a handgun will be even less so, but an anti-aircraft or anti-tank weapon could be extremely useful. More useful still would be access to high explosives, to use in IEDs (the weapon of choice for insurgents fighting a modern military).
 
That's such shoddy legal reasoning that it's embarrassing. It's circular: some kinds of firearms are "commonly owned and used" because they've never been banned, and they can't be banned because they're "commonly owned and used." What rubbish. Of course, by that reasoning, Congress could, if it wanted, ban all new firearms designs... by definition, anything that hasn't existed before can't be commonly owned and used, and if every new design is banned from the outset, no new design will ever be commonly owned and used. I'm not arguing in favor of such a law -- just pointing out the absurd application of a legal opinion written by a braying cretin.

It is not shoddy reasoning -- it merely entails not reading the finding in Heller in a vaccuum and reading other court cases and what they say about the individual right to firearms (which has been affirmed by the court multiple times).

Congress perhaps could attempt to ban all new firearms designs -- that would require a new ruling by the court. The court, following both Heller and McDonald, left the door open for additional challenges to determine where the "bright line" exists when it comes to how far a restriction on firearms can go. We know from the language in Heller/MacDonald that it can't totally ban types of firearms (regulations may be placed on them, but not bans), and that any limits on the exercise of the right are subject to strict scrutiny just as limits on the right to free speech are subject to that doctrine.

I won't comment on anyone's status as a "braying cretin." I lack your expertise.
 
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