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Flags at Half Staff

middleview

President
Supporting Member
So once again, the president has ordered flags lowered to honor the victims of murders in California. It seems the practice, that for our entire history, had been to do that when someone died who had given much in service to our country. That seems to have changed when George W. Bush ordered them lowered after 911.

Should we have ordered the flags lowered for victims of the Pulse shooting? How about when Russia shot down KAL 007? I don't think so. I believe it diminishes the value of the gesture. I can understand 911 being a moment of national mourning. When Chris Christie ordered flags lowered for Whitney Houston, I think that was simply wrong.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
So once again, the president has ordered flags lowered to honor the victims of murders in California. It seems the practice, that for our entire history, had been to do that when someone died who had given much in service to our country. That seems to have changed when George W. Bush ordered them lowered after 911.

Should we have ordered the flags lowered for victims of the Pulse shooting? How about when Russia shot down KAL 007? I don't think so. I believe it diminishes the value of the gesture. I can understand 911 being a moment of national mourning. When Chris Christie ordered flags lowered for Whitney Houston, I think that was simply wrong.
So, your argument is that Bush should not have lowered the flags following 911?

It seems to me a lot of first responders gave their lives in service of their country on that day...Plus, those who died in the Pentagon that day, serving their country. They should not have been so honored?

Agree to disagree.
 
So once again, the president has ordered flags lowered to honor the victims of murders in California. It seems the practice, that for our entire history, had been to do that when someone died who had given much in service to our country. That seems to have changed when George W. Bush ordered them lowered after 911.

Should we have ordered the flags lowered for victims of the Pulse shooting? How about when Russia shot down KAL 007? I don't think so. I believe it diminishes the value of the gesture. I can understand 911 being a moment of national mourning. When Chris Christie ordered flags lowered for Whitney Houston, I think that was simply wrong.
We'll lower them when you switch to being a conservative.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
So, your argument is that Bush should not have lowered the flags following 911?

It seems to me a lot of first responders gave their lives in service of their country on that day...Plus, those who died in the Pentagon that day, serving their country. They should not have been so honored?

Agree to disagree.
Really? Did you actually read the whole post?
I can understand 911 being a moment of national mourning
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
where have I told a lie?
You wrote the law says intent doesn't matter.

You lied

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.
 
You wrote the law says intent doesn't matter.

You lied

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.
that's how you read it. Tell us F Lee, if they didn't intend to retain them, did they still break the law?
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
Really? Did you actually read the whole post?
I can understand 911 being a moment of national mourning
You also said this:

It seems the practice, that for our entire history, had been to do that when someone died who had given much in service to our country. That seems to have changed when George W. Bush ordered them lowered after 911.

So what, exactly, is your point? How does that affect Biden's decision to lower or not lower the flag for a mass shooting?
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
You also said this:

It seems the practice, that for our entire history, had been to do that when someone died who had given much in service to our country. That seems to have changed when George W. Bush ordered them lowered after 911.

So what, exactly, is your point? How does that affect Biden's decision to lower or not lower the flag for a mass shooting?
I stated that the rules changed then, but understood it was a moment of national mourning. Not that he shouldn't have done it.

Lowering the flag for Pulse or Whitney Houston is wrong. Clear now?
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
I stated that the rules changed then, but understood it was a moment of national mourning. Not that he shouldn't have done it.

Lowering the flag for Pulse or Whitney Houston is wrong. Clear now?
Not really.

I don't sense a changing of the rules in lowering the flag for something that was entirely appropriate.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Not really.

I don't sense a changing of the rules in lowering the flag for something that was entirely appropriate.
So what is appropriate? Chris Christie lowered it for Whitney Houston and for the Estreet Band Sax player. WTF?
 

EatTheRich

President
I remember when Gerald Ford died, the flags were at half staff for like a week. Well, it was the same week Saddam Hussein died (was executed) and I remember looking at the lowered flag, confused, like “is the flag lowered for … Saddam?” But everything was so weird then (Bush presidency) that it was like, hmm. Maybe so?
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
So what is appropriate? Chris Christie lowered it for Whitney Houston and for the Estreet Band Sax player. WTF?
Biden ordered flags to be lowered upon one million Covid-related deaths...Is that appropriate? Maybe. Judgement call I suppose.

"Flagcenter" says this:

The flag shall be flown at half-staff for:

thirty days following the death of the President or a former President
ten days following the day of death of the Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice of the United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives
from the day of death until interment of an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a Secretary of an executive or military department, a former Vice President or the Governor of a State, territory, or possession
on the day of death and the following day for a Member of Congress
Peace Officers Memorial Day, unless that day is also Armed Forces Day.
In a case where the flag is fixed to the pole (often in residential situations) it cannot be flown at half staff. In this instance, it is proper to attach two black ribbons to the end of the pole to show respect.


How and When to Fly the Flag at Half-Staff (flagcenter.com)

More here from the VA:

The president may order the flag to be flown at half-staff to mark the death of other officials, former officials, or foreign dignitaries. In addition to these occasions, the president may order half-staff display of the flag after other tragic events

Half-Staffing (va.gov)


It seems there is some room for discretion.
 
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