I wonder what Santorum or Gingrich think about this incident ....

[imreallyperplexed]

The following incident was reported in my paper this morning.

D.C. priest denies lesbian Communion at mother's funeral.

I wonder about Santorum and Gingrich in particular since they are Catholic. I'm curious if any Catholics on PJ have an opinion on this.

I know that I would be very upset if I heard about a rabbi who did something like that at a funeral service. (I am Jewish.)

 

[MaryAnne]

They would think that is just fine,IRP. The Church had to come out and say,"It was handled wrong. Should have been handled behind closed doors."

Just another naughty little secret that should remain that way.

 

[gigi]

They would think that is just fine,IRP. The Church had to come out and say,"It was handled wrong. Should have been handled behind closed doors."

Just another naughty little secret that should remain that way.

Get a clue.


It's not a "naughty little secret", it's a common and well known practice in the Church for anyone who wants to know facts before they judge. The fact is, when someone is unable to receive Communion because of a public position they take that the Church believes is a grave sin, or when it's known to a priest that they're living or practicing something that is a grave sin, the priest or the bishop is supposed to take them into a private meeting and let them know that they can't receieve Communion and why. It's for the sake of the individual's privacy, not because there's some big secret about a point of view the Church doesn't want you to know about. Also, the priest doesn't know if someone on the Communion line has repented. But if the person has, that is something that would have come up in that private conversation.

Then again, sometimes you have Catholics that want to play "my way or the highway" regardless of what they're told in private, and the bishop has no choice but to instruct priests not to give them Communion. Sebilius is one of them. Her bishop talked with her and worked with her for over a year and she was still presenting herself for Communion. So he had no choice but to finally instruct priests to tell her no. But til then, Sebilius took the "eff you I'm doing what I want" attitude.
Pelosi, on the other hand, has the same attitude, but it was SHE who decided to make public the private talks bishops were having with her. And in doing so, she made it appear that the bishops were doing something publicly that should have been private.

So no, it was not "fine" what this priest did. He should have taken Johnson aside privately as soon as he heard that she was involved with a woman. The funeral could have been a few minutes late. Since he opted not to do that, and really had no way to know what was going on with her, he should have just given her Communion. Like the bishop said, he had no way of knowing what was in her heart or what her circumstances were. So what if the funeral would have been delayed ten minutes. And leaving the altar and skipping the burial was horrendous. It's not typical or common that a priest would or should do something like that.

It's got to be a very painful thing for gay people who still want to practice a particular faith-Catholic or otherwise-that views their relationships as a serious sin.

 

[MaryAnne]

You might want to get a clue. The Church apologized and those were their words, not mine about how it should be handled in private.

It was the woman's Mothers funeral. I can assure you if that happened to anyone in my family,I would have no use at all for that particular Priest or Pastor.

Also,understand,there are many things I do not like about religion that is man made. I will not do a knee jerk defense every time something comes out I know is wrong. Man Made Religion is just that. Made by man to fit what they think faith should be.

 

[NightSwimmer]

By your standards, nobody is qualified to receive communion -- not even yourself.

 

[gigi]

You might want to get a clue. The Church apologized and those were their words, not mine about how it should be handled in private.

It was the woman's Mothers funeral. I can assure you if that happened to anyone in my family,I would have no use at all for that particular Priest or Pastor.

Also,understand,there are many things I do not like about religion that is man made. I will not do a knee jerk defense every time something comes out I know is wrong. Man Made Religion is just that. Made by man to fit what they think faith should be.

You're the one who used the words "naughty little secret" regarding what the bishop said, when you really didnt' understand WHY he said it at all.

 

[gigi]

By your standards, nobody is qualified to receive communion -- not even yourself.

I don't remember discussing "my" standards. Do you?

 

[NightSwimmer]

I don't remember discussing "my" standards. Do you?

So then... You're implying that you officially speak for the Church? Based upon your limited understanding of Christian theology, I wouldn't have thought you to be qualified to hold such a lofty position.

 

[gigi]

So then... You're implying that you officially speak for the Church? Based upon your limited understanding of Christian theology, I wouldn't have thought you to be qualified to hold such a lofty position.

There are laws and rules you have to know if you practice faiths. The answer I gave was one of those. I doubt the thread was started with the idea that a Catholic bishop was going to happen by and answer the question. In fact, if you go to the top post and read it again slowly, or have someone help you if you need, you'll see the sentence, " I'm curious if any Catholics on PJ have an opinion on this."

I'm Catholic.

I visit PJ.

I have an opinion on this. I gave my opinion, and I explained that the privacy the bishop mentioned wasn't a "naughty little secret".

 

[NightSwimmer]

I'm sure the Bishop appreciates your clarification of his position regarding this matter.

 

[gigi]

I'm sure the Bishop appreciates your clarification of his position regarding this matter.

I think "naughty little secret" was an attempt to explain the bishops remarks. But I guess you missed that.

I only explained the facts. Sorry if I stalled the bandwagon.

 

[imreallyperplexed]

gigi,

You are correct. I did invite Catholics to offer their opinions. Thanks for offering yours.

Personally, to the extent that the bishops set doctrine that deny Communion with Christ (which is my understanding of the ritual) at a parent's funeral whatever the sin is a group that is seriously out of touch with God. Would the bishops refuse Communion to a convicted murderer at a funeral service for one of their parents? (I don't know the answer to that so I am curious.)

The one thing that I am sure of (as a personal matter of faith) is that God does commune with gay people in remembering their parents whether or not it is approved of by a set of bishops who purport to know the will of God.

BTW, your discussion of how the bishops treated Kathleen Sibelius illustrates why a stooge of the bishops like Rick Santorum should never be elected President. The bishops seem to like to blackmail politicians who don't obey orders.

There are laws and rules you have to know if you practice faiths. The answer I gave was one of those. I doubt the thread was started with the idea that a Catholic bishop was going to happen by and answer the question. In fact, if you go to the top post and read it again slowly, or have someone help you if you need, you'll see the sentence, " I'm curious if any Catholics on PJ have an opinion on this."

I'm Catholic.

I visit PJ.

I have an opinion on this. I gave my opinion, and I explained that the privacy the bishop mentioned wasn't a "naughty little secret".

 

[MaryAnne]

You're the one who used the words "naughty little secret" regarding what the bishop said, when you really didnt' understand WHY he said it at all.

Not sure what you mean by that. The Church said,"the Priest was wrong an it should have been done in private." and Yes I did follow with," Another naughty secret."

What do you expect when the Catholic Church has covered up so many Priests over the years that have raped little boys!

It is the truth, so deal with it!

 

[JV-12]

Archdiocese of Washington reprimands priest for denying communion to a lesbian

GAITHERSBURG, MARYLAND, February 29, 2012, (LifeSiteNews.com) – A parish priest in Maryland, who denied communion to a woman who identified herself as a lesbian, has been publicly rebuked by the Archdiocese of Washington.

Barbara Johnson attended her mother’s funeral last Saturday and introduced her lesbian partner to the priest before Mass.Fr. Marcel Guarnizo of St. John Neumann Catholic Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland, covered the Host as she approached and told her, “I can’t give you Communion because you live with a woman, and in the eyes of the Church, that is a sin.”

Afterwards, she wrote him a letter telling him, “I will do everything in my power to see that you are removed from parish life so that you will not be permitted to harm any more families.”

Auxiliary Bishop Barry Knestout wrote a formal letter of apology telling Johnson, “I am sorry that what should have been a celebration of your mother’s life, in light of her faith in Jesus Christ, was overshadowed by a lack of pastoral sensitivity.”

The Archdiocese of Washington issued a brief press release saying Fr. Guarnizo’s actions were inappropriate. “When questions arise about whether or not an individual should present themselves for communion, it is not the policy of the Archdiocese of Washington to publicly reprimand the person. Any issues regarding the suitability of an individual to receive communion should be addressed by the priest with that person in a private, pastoral setting.”

After receiving the letter of apology, Johnson said “I will not be satisfied” until Fr. Guarnizo is removed from the parish.

….etc.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ar...imands-priest-for-denying-communion-to-a-lesb



Comment: In the cathedral of St. Paul, Minnesota the priest refused Holy Communion to a group of gay protesters (vocally protesting in front of the church before the mass) who wore a rainbow sash uniform as they approached the altar for communion en masse. The priest acted properly in those circumstances.

So there are times when refusal is appropriate, but that would be a rare exception, and I believe Rome would concur.

 

[Doc]

One of the reasons I have not converted to Catholicism. (And, I sincerely love much of their Ritual and organization...)

But, remember...this is AFTER so many Priests have been caught molesting little boys.

So, basically, IF you are divorced and remarried, or, in a "Gay" marriage, and/or union, by Church Doctrine, you can NOT recieve Communion (Which is VERY important to Catholics)...from a Priest, who, may have just raped a little boy...

Sorry, but that makes no sense...

 

[JV-12]

One of the reasons I have not converted to Catholicism. (And, I sincerely love much of their Ritual and organization...)

But, remember...this is AFTER so many Priests have been caught molesting little boys.

So, basically, IF you are divorced and remarried, or, in a "Gay" marriage, and/or union, by Church Doctrine, you can NOT recieve Communion (Which is VERY important to Catholics)...from a Priest, who, may have just raped a little boy...

Sorry, but that makes no sense...

Honest question: If there were not priests who molested minors, would the Church laws make sense to you then?

(Note: They do not to many, if not most, Catholics in the West. I am fine with them.)

 

[Doc]

Very good question.

I would have to say "no," some of the Church's concepts do not make all that much sense to me.

However...I LOVE Mass, and the ritual of Mass. I Love what the Church does for the community, and their membership. And, the idea of "Confession" is BRILLIANT, in my opinion (Especially, for the time in which it was concieved--there were no "Psychologists," etc. until the Modern age...)

My biggest problem would be in some of the "Pope as Divine Representative" on Eath ideas, etc. IF that is true, then God F'd up big time by putting the Borgaises in....(Spelling is probably not correct...)

 

[JV-12]

Very good question.

I would have to say "no," some of the Church's concepts do not make all that much sense to me.

However...I LOVE Mass, and the ritual of Mass. I Love what the Church does for the community, and their membership. And, the idea of "Confession" is BRILLIANT, in my opinion (Especially, for the time in which it was concieved--there were no "Psychologists," etc. until the Modern age...)

My biggest problem would be in some of the "Pope as Divine Representative" on Eath ideas, etc. IF that is true, then God F'd up big time by putting the Borgaises in....(Spelling is probably not correct...)

No time today to argue with you Doc (assuming I do have an arguement), but I appreciate your comments.

As to those nasty popes you reference, that is a particularly tricky one to "defend." I will say this: more than one priest and theologian have commented that no matter how despicable the particular pope may have been, none of them made any proclamations or changed any rulings that went against Church dogma, doctrines, teachings, et al. That I find noteworthy.

Also: The Church never taught the pope was "semi-divine" or infallible, but that the office was.

 

[Doc]

"Also: The Church never taught the pope was "semi-divine" or infallible, but that the office was."

That makes a HUGE difference, in my opinion. But I still do not accept the overall power given to the Pope. Just too open to abuse by those who seek power. That said, I DO believe that a few Popes were Divinely guided. Pope John Paul, being the latest one. (I do not really make a judgement on the current Pope, but, he I have heard that he is trying to bring the center of the Church back to Europe, by raising so many European Cardinals....)

But, the Popes and Church were overpolitical in the Middle Ages as well. (One of the things that influenced the Protestant movement).

Yet, at the same time, many people miss the "subtle" and "unspoken" GOOD the Church did: Maintained Peace between Rulers; The Monastaries "saved" much of Western Legacy, then, became centers of LEARNING; And, the personal aid, spritual, mental, and physical, that they often gave to the People.

(Oh, I also think that the whole 'Latin Readings' of the Bible, in the Middle Ages was dumb, but, that was largely a way to maintain the high position of Priests in society....)

 

[imreallyperplexed]

Thanks for letting me know JV. I think that that was appropriate. I can understand why Ms. Johnson is unsatisfied. If I were in her place, I probably would be as well. However, I can also understand the position of the Church vis a vis appropriate discipline. I do hope that the Church has the priest do a little additional penance beyond a letter of apology. But dismissal seems a little extreme to me. (I am still a bit uncomfortable with any thought of trying to discipline a person (lesbian, adulterer, woman taking contraceptives) who is grieving for a parent. But I am not Catholic so I reserve judgement.)

Archdiocese of Washington reprimands priest for denying communion to a lesbian

GAITHERSBURG, MARYLAND, February 29, 2012, (LifeSiteNews.com) – A parish priest in Maryland, who denied communion to a woman who identified herself as a lesbian, has been publicly rebuked by the Archdiocese of Washington.

Barbara Johnson attended her mother’s funeral last Saturday and introduced her lesbian partner to the priest before Mass.Fr. Marcel Guarnizo of St. John Neumann Catholic Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland, covered the Host as she approached and told her, “I can’t give you Communion because you live with a woman, and in the eyes of the Church, that is a sin.”

Afterwards, she wrote him a letter telling him, “I will do everything in my power to see that you are removed from parish life so that you will not be permitted to harm any more families.”

Auxiliary Bishop Barry Knestout wrote a formal letter of apology telling Johnson, “I am sorry that what should have been a celebration of your mother’s life, in light of her faith in Jesus Christ, was overshadowed by a lack of pastoral sensitivity.”

The Archdiocese of Washington issued a brief press release saying Fr. Guarnizo’s actions were inappropriate. “When questions arise about whether or not an individual should present themselves for communion, it is not the policy of the Archdiocese of Washington to publicly reprimand the person. Any issues regarding the suitability of an individual to receive communion should be addressed by the priest with that person in a private, pastoral setting.”

After receiving the letter of apology, Johnson said “I will not be satisfied” until Fr. Guarnizo is removed from the parish.

….etc.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ar...imands-priest-for-denying-communion-to-a-lesb



Comment: In the cathedral of St. Paul, Minnesota the priest refused Holy Communion to a group of gay protesters (vocally protesting in front of the church before the mass) who wore a rainbow sash uniform as they approached the altar for communion en masse. The priest acted properly in those circumstances.

So there are times when refusal is appropriate, but that would be a rare exception, and I believe Rome would concur.