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Its not about taking guns away, its about safety!

I

IndependentinWis

Mayor
The NRA and its cohorts talk about the government taking your guns away and thus scare you to go out and buy more guns and ammunition, but the people who support gun control laws are not about taking your guns away but about making our country safer for us and our children. More guns have not made this country safer for anyone, just look at the statistics. We have the most guns and we have the most guns deaths by far than any other country in the world. We never were and never will be about taking guns from anyone. People on this message board often say more people are killed with cars than guns and they are right. And we have passed many laws trying to make driving safer. Speed limits, seat belts, driving impaired, using cell phones and other laws we attempt to make driving safer for everyone. At times people don't follow those law and people die. Without those laws, many more people would die in cars. Never has anyone said we are going to try to outlaw private vehicles and told us to go out and buy more cars before they outlaw them. So now we are trying to pass a few laws to see if we can't make things safer for us and our children and even the most benign laws like universal background checks are being fought tooth and nail by the NRA and the gun companies. Lately I have seen an article where the companies that manufacture guns say they will move their companies out of any state that passes any gun law limiting the sale of weapons. The NRA and gun companies aren't interested in safety, they are only interested in selling more guns. Many people fought some of the safety laws that we passed to make driving safer, but the state legislators around the country found the courage to pass laws anyway. Hopefully the same will happen with gun safety laws.
 
Safety and individual Liberty are inversely proportional. You're telling me you would forego your personal liberty for personal safety, an ephemeral concept if there ever was one. try crossing a city street at rush hour, and you're foaming at the mouth ready, willing and able to toss away the Republic and the Constitution and the rights and freedoms bequeathed by them for something as nebulous as gun safety. 430,000 Americans died to preserve your freedom during WWII, another 630,000 died during the Civil War for Freedom and you're now willing to toss it away and grant this C@cksucker Obama free passage to his longed for dictatorship because 26 people were killed by a madman. How many times has Obama used the word 'Emperor"? "Methinks what is oft said in jest is meant in earnest"
 
About 30,000 Americans are killed by firearms each year. In two years, that's more deaths than the total American deaths in Vietnam or Korea. In two months, that's more deaths than the total American deaths in Afghanistan or Iraq.

30,000 firearm deaths in the USA each year. How are these deaths related to liberty and why would efforts aimed at reducing that number be anti-liberty if life is also a sacred right?

I guess your point is that second amendment liberties are rather messy but if Americans strapping the absolute second amendment want mayhem, well hell, that's just liberty American style.
 
tobaccoroad said:
Safety and individual Liberty are inversely proportional. You're telling me you would forego your personal liberty for personal safety, an ephemeral concept if there ever was one. try crossing a city street at rush hour, and you're foaming at the mouth ready, willing and able to toss away the Republic and the Constitution and the rights and freedoms bequeathed by them for something as nebulous as gun safety. 430,000 Americans died to preserve your freedom during WWII, another 630,000 died during the Civil War for Freedom and you're now willing to toss it away and grant this C@cksucker Obama free passage to his longed for dictatorship because 26 people were killed by a madman. How many times has Obama used the word 'Emperor"? "Methinks what is oft said in jest is meant in earnest"
Click to expand...

What is individual liberty? The right to gun down a school full of kids? The right to purchase weed in retail store? Legally shop for a prostitute?

The Netherlands has a great deal of individual liberty and it is a safe country. This is counter to your initial assertion. Is it just the US that has trouble with balancing liberty and safety?
 
ARMCX1 said:
About 30,000 Americans are killed by firearms each year. In two years, that's more deaths than the total American deaths in Vietnam or Korea. In two months, that's more deaths than the total American deaths in Afghanistan or Iraq.

30,000 firearm deaths in the USA each year. How are these deaths related to liberty and why would efforts aimed at reducing that number be anti-liberty if life is also a sacred right?

I guess your point is that second amendment liberties are rather messy but if Americans strapping the absolute second amendment want mayhem, well hell, that's just liberty American style.
Click to expand...


19000 of which, roughly, chose to end their own lives with a firearm. That firearm gave them the liberty to take their own life through a relatively easy/painless method. So your number should actually read 11000.
 
IndependentinWis said:
The NRA and its cohorts talk about the government taking your guns away and thus scare you to go out and buy more guns and ammunition, but the people who support gun control laws are not about taking your guns away but about making our country safer for us and our children. More guns have not made this country safer for anyone, just look at the statistics. We have the most guns and we have the most guns deaths by far than any other country in the world. We never were and never will be about taking guns from anyone. People on this message board often say more people are killed with cars than guns and they are right. And we have passed many laws trying to make driving safer. Speed limits, seat belts, driving impaired, using cell phones and other laws we attempt to make driving safer for everyone. At times people don't follow those law and people die. Without those laws, many more people would die in cars. Never has anyone said we are going to try to outlaw private vehicles and told us to go out and buy more cars before they outlaw them. So now we are trying to pass a few laws to see if we can't make things safer for us and our children and even the most benign laws like universal background checks are being fought tooth and nail by the NRA and the gun companies. Lately I have seen an article where the companies that manufacture guns say they will move their companies out of any state that passes any gun law limiting the sale of weapons. The NRA and gun companies aren't interested in safety, they are only interested in selling more guns. Many people fought some of the safety laws that we passed to make driving safer, but the state legislators around the country found the courage to pass laws anyway. Hopefully the same will happen with gun safety laws.
Click to expand...

Can you show me a workable, enforceable gun law that would make anyone safer?
 
It's not about safety it's about population control. Particularly their domestic political opposition. It's an obsession for them.

Same with removing the "cool" play ground equipment and replacing it with gay shit. Same with mandatory bike helmets for kids.


Same with "no turn on red lights" in Louisiana, ostensibly because the heavily black and heavily dumbed down population there doesn't have the personal responsibility, good sense, and common sense driving skills to execute a safe unprotected right hand turn on a red light DOH!!!!!!!!

See what psychology 101 says about intellect and driving skills.

Btw, some people say I'm f(x)ing loco man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm only one of the best "Wheel Men" on the planet, and that ain't no exaggeration.
 
How many times has Obama used the term "emperor"? Do you remember Bush saying a dictatorship would be so much easier if only he could be the dictator?

The number of people talking about taking your guns away are a hundful. The number of people asking for universal background checks is about 90%. I served in the military. Are you telling me I do not have the right to express my opinion? Are you saying that background checks are unconstitutional? If so, then why are they allowed at all? Are you in favor of allowing felons to own guns? Are you in favor of allowing someone who has been ordered by a court to be committed to psychiatric care because of tendencies to commit violent acts to own firearms?
 
I gotta disagree...on all three counts.
Workablility?
1. I do software for a living. The idea of an Ammunition Purchase license would be far simpler and cheaper than credit cards. You have a card with a readable stripe which is the serial number of the APL card. The database at the ATF has that serial number, the serial number of the gun, the caliber of the gun and the date of issue...that is all.
2. When you buy ammo the device used to swap the card prompts for the caliber of ammo you are buying. The clerk compares your driver's license with the name printed on the front of the card. The ATF system then authorizes the sale...assuming the card is valid.
3. When you pass the background check, you get an APL card. When you sell your gun your card is now invalid and a new one is isued to the new owner.
4. If you have a gun and don't have an APL bring your gun in and get a background check done and you get your card.

-- So there is how "complicated" the system is.

Enforceable?
1. If you don't have a card you can't buy ammo....What gun store will sell ammo and risk losing their license to do business?
See how easy that is?
2. If you make ammunition and sell it illegally you may find yourself charged with any crime committed using a weapon you provided ammo for.

As far as making anyone safer, that is your opinion and it differs from mine... and the only way to know is to implement the system and see.

Your alternative is to do nothing.....which certainly does not make anyone safer.
 
middleview said:
I gotta disagree...on all three counts.
Workablility?
1. I do software for a living. The idea of an Ammunition Purchase license would be far simpler and cheaper than credit cards. You have a card with a readable stripe which is the serial number of the APL card. The database at the ATF has that serial number, the serial number of the gun, the caliber of the gun and the date of issue...that is all.
2. When you buy ammo the device used to swap the card prompts for the caliber of ammo you are buying. The clerk compares your driver's license with the name printed on the front of the card. The ATF system then authorizes the sale...assuming the card is valid.
3. When you pass the background check, you get an APL card. When you sell your gun your card is now invalid and a new one is isued to the new owner.
4. If you have a gun and don't have an APL bring your gun in and get a background check done and you get your card.

-- So there is how "complicated" the system is.

Enforceable?
1. If you don't have a card you can't buy ammo....What gun store will sell ammo and risk losing their license to do business?
See how easy that is?
2. If you make ammunition and sell it illegally you may find yourself charged with any crime committed using a weapon you provided ammo for.

As far as making anyone safer, that is your opinion and it differs from mine... and the only way to know is to implement the system and see.

Your alternative is to do nothing.....which certainly does not make anyone safer.
Click to expand...

Do you really think its reasonable to spend however many thousands of dollars it would cost, and interfere so much with the fundamental rights of us all, (I know you're not using that right, but I am), just to see if it might work? OH HELL NO!!!
 
Frey, even Scalia, the most conservative member of SCOTUS says we can have reasonable guns laws. He pointed out the fact that we outlaw the personal ownership of machine guns. So, where is this in your argument on "fundamental" rights. The only fundamental rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And the so called right to private ownership of guns has only been since this very conservative and political SCOTUS made it so.
 
And the so called right to private ownership of guns has only been since this very conservative and political SCOTUS made it so.

This is one of the must fundamentally incorrect sentences a human has ever written, uttered, or typed.

Congrats!
 
IndependentinWis said:
Frey, even Scalia, the most conservative member of SCOTUS says we can have reasonable guns laws. He pointed out the fact that we outlaw the personal ownership of machine guns. So, where is this in your argument on "fundamental" rights. The only fundamental rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And the so called right to private ownership of guns has only been since this very conservative and political SCOTUS made it so.
Click to expand...
Why do you guys insist so much upon restricting others rights? It doesn't achieve any of the things you claim to want; it doesn't limit crime, or reduce violence, or make anyone any safer.... so WTF, over?
 
Do you think it better to go with your opinion? Do nothing because we save money. Hope it isn't your kid who gets murdered in his kindergarten class next time?

I know of no "interference" in your rights based on this plan. Care to tell me exacly what the interference is? Are you in favor of felons owning guns? If not then how would you prevent it?
 
Courts in the 1930s ruled that the 2nd amendment was meant to provide for a militia, not for private ownership....
 
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