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Objective Religious Merit

Arkady

President
I believe that any religion can inspire great acts of kindness or terrible acts of cruelty. Any religion can be the faith of a society that is pluralistic and innovative, or a society that is totalitarian and backwards. It isn't about what the religion's official dogma says, but rather about how it is applied. Within any foundational scripture or other teaching, there will inevitably be material available that people will see as pointing in whatever direction they were predisposed to go -- either because of conflicting material where a person can pick and choose which of the competing instructions to follow, or because of ambiguous language, or language that can be obfuscated by a poetic reading to mean what the person wishes it meant.

For example, take capital punishment and Christianity. Christians can see capital punishment as either mandated or forbidden by the Christian faith. Those who want to kill people for punishment can look to the Old Testament (which, since Jesus said not one jot of the Law would fall away, is still operative for Christians). It mandated capital punishment for a wide variety of offenses -- even kids who are stubborn and rebellious to their parents are supposed to have stones thrown at them by the men of their city, until they're dead. Those who don't want to kill people for punishment can look to the story and teachings of Jesus, who said that only he without sin can cast the first stone (and since, in standard Christian dogma, no person is without sin except Jesus and, perhaps, Mary, that means nobody can carry out a death sentence). In fact, the whole Jesus story is built around the story of a uniquely virtuous man being unjustly subjected to capital punishment, which opponents of the death penalty see as a powerful statement against the practice.

The Bible is not unusual, in that sense, nor is the question of capital punishment. With almost any major moral question and nearly any religion, you can find or fairly easily create religious support for whatever position you want. So, I generally regard religion as largely beside the point. Good people will be good and bad people will be bad regardless of what faiths they nominally embrace. Societies that are healthy will develop virtuous versions of their faiths (like the versions of Christianity practiced in today's Western Europe), while societies that are morally sick will develop morally sick versions (like the versions of Christianity practiced in Western Europe during the era of the Conquistadors, the Inquisitors, and the religious civil wars.) I oppose religion not because I don't believe religion dements people --without supernatural religion, the demented would just invent some secular faith to justify their actions. Rather, I oppose it because I think it's superfluous. I think that it slows the advance of human thinking by causing it to go through the external forms of religion, which is inefficient, but I believe that the advance will happen, one way or the other, regardless of which religion's external forms are the maze through which it must wind.

Although this is my current position, I'm open to counter-argument. Is there a case to be made that a particular religion really is unusually wedded to vice or virtue? Is there a case to be made that the fundamental dogmas of a particular religion cause it to be extraordinarily difficult to bend to the benefit (or to the harm) of mankind? I can certainly see that certain eras and local versions of religions involve a faith that is particularly harmful (e.g., Wahabist Islam in the present-day Middle East, or the Catholic faith around 1500, in Spain). But is there some sign of an enduring immorality or backwardness (or morality or progressiveness) for a particular faith throughout its history? Is there some reason to think that a particular religion is morally better than others, in terms of its objective outcomes, as opposed to your reading of its dogma?

For example, if I were to argue the inherent superiority of Catholicism over Protestantism, I might use as an example the way Catholic countries typically moved beyond slavery more quickly than Protestant ones, suggesting some inherent virtue in the faith. For example, predominantly Catholic Mexico abolished slavery long before the predominantly Protestant US (which was one of the core issues that caused the slavery-loving Texans to insist on independence). But I could turn around and argue the inherent superiority of Protestantism over Catholicism based on the greater scientific progress in Protestant nations during the Enlightenment (even French Enlightenment thinkers, like Descartes, often did their important work in Protestant countries, like the Netherlands, because of the greater intellectual freedom beyond the reach of the Pope). So, I don't see a clear argument one way or the other on this. But perhaps someone more familiar with Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, or some other faith could make an argument that it's fairly consistently better or worse than most religions, in objective, historical terms.
 
But perhaps someone more familiar with Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, or some other faith could make an argument that it's fairly consistently better or worse than most religions, in objective, historical terms.

This would require you to admit that someone, somewhere, is more familiar with anything than you are. And, let's be honest, that isn't going to happen...:rolleyes:
 
I believe that any religion can inspire great acts of kindness or terrible acts of cruelty. Any religion can be the faith of a society that is pluralistic and innovative, or a society that is totalitarian and backwards. It isn't about what the religion's official dogma says, but rather about how it is applied. Within any foundational scripture or other teaching, there will inevitably be material available that people will see as pointing in whatever direction they were predisposed to go -- either because of conflicting material where a person can pick and choose which of the competing instructions to follow, or because of ambiguous language, or language that can be obfuscated by a poetic reading to mean what the person wishes it meant.

For example, take capital punishment and Christianity. Christians can see capital punishment as either mandated or forbidden by the Christian faith. Those who want to kill people for punishment can look to the Old Testament (which, since Jesus said not one jot of the Law would fall away, is still operative for Christians). It mandated capital punishment for a wide variety of offenses -- even kids who are stubborn and rebellious to their parents are supposed to have stones thrown at them by the men of their city, until they're dead. Those who don't want to kill people for punishment can look to the story and teachings of Jesus, who said that only he without sin can cast the first stone (and since, in standard Christian dogma, no person is without sin except Jesus and, perhaps, Mary, that means nobody can carry out a death sentence). In fact, the whole Jesus story is built around the story of a uniquely virtuous man being unjustly subjected to capital punishment, which opponents of the death penalty see as a powerful statement against the practice.

The Bible is not unusual, in that sense, nor is the question of capital punishment. With almost any major moral question and nearly any religion, you can find or fairly easily create religious support for whatever position you want. So, I generally regard religion as largely beside the point. Good people will be good and bad people will be bad regardless of what faiths they nominally embrace. Societies that are healthy will develop virtuous versions of their faiths (like the versions of Christianity practiced in today's Western Europe), while societies that are morally sick will develop morally sick versions (like the versions of Christianity practiced in Western Europe during the era of the Conquistadors, the Inquisitors, and the religious civil wars.) I oppose religion not because I don't believe religion dements people --without supernatural religion, the demented would just invent some secular faith to justify their actions. Rather, I oppose it because I think it's superfluous. I think that it slows the advance of human thinking by causing it to go through the external forms of religion, which is inefficient, but I believe that the advance will happen, one way or the other, regardless of which religion's external forms are the maze through which it must wind.

Although this is my current position, I'm open to counter-argument. Is there a case to be made that a particular religion really is unusually wedded to vice or virtue? Is there a case to be made that the fundamental dogmas of a particular religion cause it to be extraordinarily difficult to bend to the benefit (or to the harm) of mankind? I can certainly see that certain eras and local versions of religions involve a faith that is particularly harmful (e.g., Wahabist Islam in the present-day Middle East, or the Catholic faith around 1500, in Spain). But is there some sign of an enduring immorality or backwardness (or morality or progressiveness) for a particular faith throughout its history? Is there some reason to think that a particular religion is morally better than others, in terms of its objective outcomes, as opposed to your reading of its dogma?

For example, if I were to argue the inherent superiority of Catholicism over Protestantism, I might use as an example the way Catholic countries typically moved beyond slavery more quickly than Protestant ones, suggesting some inherent virtue in the faith. For example, predominantly Catholic Mexico abolished slavery long before the predominantly Protestant US (which was one of the core issues that caused the slavery-loving Texans to insist on independence). But I could turn around and argue the inherent superiority of Protestantism over Catholicism based on the greater scientific progress in Protestant nations during the Enlightenment (even French Enlightenment thinkers, like Descartes, often did their important work in Protestant countries, like the Netherlands, because of the greater intellectual freedom beyond the reach of the Pope). So, I don't see a clear argument one way or the other on this. But perhaps someone more familiar with Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, or some other faith could make an argument that it's fairly consistently better or worse than most religions, in objective, historical terms.

Your entire "argument" applies equally to the believer and the non-believer. In instances where presumably reasonable people skip over such an obvious fact, people are inclined to being suspicious of their motivations.
 
Your entire "argument" applies equally to the believer and the non-believer. In instances where presumably reasonable people skip over such an obvious fact, people are inclined to being suspicious of their motivations.
I'm not clear on what you're saying. My argument is that any religion can be cherry-picked or bent to harmonize with either a good or an evil intent, and that ultimately religion is therefore not terribly consequential over the long term.
 
I'm not clear on what you're saying. My argument is that any religion can be cherry-picked or bent to harmonize with either a good or an evil intent, and that ultimately religion is therefore not terribly consequential over the long term.

I'm saying that the same argument can be applied to those ascribing to "non-religion". Since there's no practical difference in this regard, from "believers" and "non-believers", your entire angle is a red herring.

Now and again, you find yourself in the position of having to let everyone know that you're smarter than everyone else. I think that feeling of yours, might be driving your difficulty in comprehending what I'm saying. IF we're convinced that WE have all the right answers, it becomes easier to identify others as not having those right answers.
 
I'm saying that the same argument can be applied to those ascribing to "non-religion". Since there's no practical difference in this regard, from "believers" and "non-believers", your entire angle is a red herring.

Now and again, you find yourself in the position of having to let everyone know that you're smarter than everyone else. I think that feeling of yours, might be driving your difficulty in comprehending what I'm saying. IF we're convinced that WE have all the right answers, it becomes easier to identify others as not having those right answers.
I'm still not clear on what you're saying. How does one ascribe to "non-religion." What is "non-religion"?

I don't, honestly, think that I'm smarter than everyone else, my "Princess Bride" joke notwithstanding. It ought not to matter, though. Surely, whether our failure of communication in this instance is due to you being inarticulate or me being dense, we should be able to work our way through it.

So, what is it you mean by suggesting that the same argument can be applied to those ascribing to non-religion?
 
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I think it's plain as the nose on your face, Arkady. You're talking about the actions of men, and attempting to make the case that it's religious men who use, cherrypick, and reinterpret commonly held beliefs to suit their own preferences. And it's just not the truth. There are beliefs outside of religion, and they, too, are subject to arbitrary application as they suit the needs of the men who play with them.
 
I think it's plain as the nose on your face, Arkady. You're talking about the actions of men, and attempting to make the case that it's religious men who use, cherrypick, and reinterpret commonly held beliefs to suit their own preferences. And it's just not the truth. There are beliefs outside of religion, and they, too, are subject to arbitrary application as they suit the needs of the men who play with them.
No. The point of my post is not to argue that it's religious men, as opposed to non-religious men, who cherry pick and reinterpret. I am not even bringing up non-religious people. The forum topic is religion, and that is the focus of my post. My argument is that the content of a religion is beside the point, since they can all mean pretty much anything in the hands of people and societies that will cherry pick and reinterpret them to fit the character of the person or the age. And I'm asking if someone can argue differently -- whether someone can argue that some religion or another is objectively better or worse, as evidenced by long-term real-world resistance to good or bad interpretations and applications.
 
Any sophisticated 'Religion'/Spiritual Structure has levels/layers of spirituality/conciousness including an outter ( fundamental) core.

The Renaissance and The Enlightenment were due to the re-finding of the Hermetica not to Puritanical Protestants. Indeed it was they, King James to be precise, who dismissed the Hermetica as the work of the Greeks rather than the Egyptians ( now proven untrue, it is an exact translation from the Hiedroglyphs ) putting us back into a metaphorical straight jacket.

http://www.hermes-press.com/Perennial_Tradition/PTch15.htm

http://gnosis.org/library/hermet.htm


 
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Any sophisticated 'Religion'/Spiritual Structure has levels/layers of spirituality/conciousness including an outter ( fundamental) core.

The Renaissance and The Enlightenment were due to the re-finding of the Hermetica not to Puritanical Protestants. Indeed it was they, King James to be precise, who dismissed the Hermetica as the work of the Greeks rather than the Egyptians ( now proven untrue, it is an exact translation from the Hiedroglyphs ) putting us back into a metaphorical straight jacket.

http://www.hermes-press.com/Perennial_Tradition/PTch15.htm

http://gnosis.org/library/hermet.htm




This nonsense is both goofy and irrelevant to the topic of this thread.
 
It isn't irrelevant to the last paragraph of the TP nor the background of Americas religions.


America's religions are the various Native American tribal religions, Mormonism and Scientology. The rest of them were imported here along with the immigrants who practiced them prior to coming to our shores.
 
I believe that any religion can inspire great acts of kindness or terrible acts of cruelty. Any religion can be the faith of a society that is pluralistic and innovative, or a society that is totalitarian and backwards. It isn't about what the religion's official dogma says, but rather about how it is applied. Within any foundational scripture or other teaching, there will inevitably be material available that people will see as pointing in whatever direction they were predisposed to go -- either because of conflicting material where a person can pick and choose which of the competing instructions to follow, or because of ambiguous language, or language that can be obfuscated by a poetic reading to mean what the person wishes it meant.

For example, take capital punishment and Christianity. Christians can see capital punishment as either mandated or forbidden by the Christian faith. Those who want to kill people for punishment can look to the Old Testament (which, since Jesus said not one jot of the Law would fall away, is still operative for Christians). It mandated capital punishment for a wide variety of offenses -- even kids who are stubborn and rebellious to their parents are supposed to have stones thrown at them by the men of their city, until they're dead. Those who don't want to kill people for punishment can look to the story and teachings of Jesus, who said that only he without sin can cast the first stone (and since, in standard Christian dogma, no person is without sin except Jesus and, perhaps, Mary, that means nobody can carry out a death sentence). In fact, the whole Jesus story is built around the story of a uniquely virtuous man being unjustly subjected to capital punishment, which opponents of the death penalty see as a powerful statement against the practice.

The Bible is not unusual, in that sense, nor is the question of capital punishment. With almost any major moral question and nearly any religion, you can find or fairly easily create religious support for whatever position you want. So, I generally regard religion as largely beside the point. Good people will be good and bad people will be bad regardless of what faiths they nominally embrace. Societies that are healthy will develop virtuous versions of their faiths (like the versions of Christianity practiced in today's Western Europe), while societies that are morally sick will develop morally sick versions (like the versions of Christianity practiced in Western Europe during the era of the Conquistadors, the Inquisitors, and the religious civil wars.) I oppose religion not because I don't believe religion dements people --without supernatural religion, the demented would just invent some secular faith to justify their actions. Rather, I oppose it because I think it's superfluous. I think that it slows the advance of human thinking by causing it to go through the external forms of religion, which is inefficient, but I believe that the advance will happen, one way or the other, regardless of which religion's external forms are the maze through which it must wind.

Although this is my current position, I'm open to counter-argument. Is there a case to be made that a particular religion really is unusually wedded to vice or virtue? Is there a case to be made that the fundamental dogmas of a particular religion cause it to be extraordinarily difficult to bend to the benefit (or to the harm) of mankind? I can certainly see that certain eras and local versions of religions involve a faith that is particularly harmful (e.g., Wahabist Islam in the present-day Middle East, or the Catholic faith around 1500, in Spain). But is there some sign of an enduring immorality or backwardness (or morality or progressiveness) for a particular faith throughout its history? Is there some reason to think that a particular religion is morally better than others, in terms of its objective outcomes, as opposed to your reading of its dogma?

For example, if I were to argue the inherent superiority of Catholicism over Protestantism, I might use as an example the way Catholic countries typically moved beyond slavery more quickly than Protestant ones, suggesting some inherent virtue in the faith. For example, predominantly Catholic Mexico abolished slavery long before the predominantly Protestant US (which was one of the core issues that caused the slavery-loving Texans to insist on independence). But I could turn around and argue the inherent superiority of Protestantism over Catholicism based on the greater scientific progress in Protestant nations during the Enlightenment (even French Enlightenment thinkers, like Descartes, often did their important work in Protestant countries, like the Netherlands, because of the greater intellectual freedom beyond the reach of the Pope). So, I don't see a clear argument one way or the other on this. But perhaps someone more familiar with Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, or some other faith could make an argument that it's fairly consistently better or worse than most religions, in objective, historical terms.

I think the distinction some have made between so-called Forest Religions and Desert religions is interesting and useful.

On the one hand we have Forest Religions. These are polytheistic to one degree or another, inclusive, co-opting, multi-faceted, and less hierarchical and authoritarian. They typically feature multiple styles of worship and paths to “the truth”, and they usually feature a more cyclical view of history and eschatology. Hinduism and Buddhism would be the major exemplars of this type of religion these days.

On the other hand we have Desert Religions. These are monotheistic and tend to be authoritarian and hierarchical. They typically insist on a relatively narrowly-defined set of dogmatic beliefs and practices and they have tended to see other faiths as pollutions to be resisted or eradicated rather than as alternatives to be respected. And they characteristically have a linear view of history that leads toward the triumphal establishment of a perfect, eternal existence based on their beliefs. The three Abrahamic religions are of course the major examples of desert religions in the modern world.

One can make the argument that Forest Religions tend to be associated with cultures that are less expansionist, belligerent, and domineering than those shaped by Desert Religions. This history of Islamic and Christian European conquest and colonization supports this argument, although after all it's impossible to separate the influence of religion and culture from circumstances of geography and historical happenstance.

History is chock full of tantalizing “what ifs”, is it not? What if, for example, China hadn't been ruled by an increasingly ineffectual foreign dynasty throughout the 19th century, beset by massive internal rebellions and enormous natural disasters? And so on... Then too, the history of Japan shows that Forest Religions can be used to support nationalistic and militaristic ideologies, so it's not as if one type of religion is necessarily more peaceful, tolerant, and life-affirming than the other.

Still... tendencies persist.

One could argue that the kind of expansionist culture that Desert Religions fostered was useful or even essential in creating a civilization with the organization, drive, and mindset necessary to create a globally-interconnected and interdependent world. Who knows? In any case, now that we live in such a world, it looks as if the old Desert Religions are in the process of changing to look much more like a Forest Religion.

It'll be interesting to see who really ends up conquering whom, so to speak.

Cheers.
 
I think the distinction some have made between so-called Forest Religions and Desert religions is interesting and useful.

On the one hand we have Forest Religions. These are polytheistic to one degree or another, inclusive, co-opting, multi-faceted, and less hierarchical and authoritarian. They typically feature multiple styles of worship and paths to “the truth”, and they usually feature a more cyclical view of history and eschatology. Hinduism and Buddhism would be the major exemplars of this type of religion these days.

On the other hand we have Desert Religions. These are monotheistic and tend to be authoritarian and hierarchical. They typically insist on a relatively narrowly-defined set of dogmatic beliefs and practices and they have tended to see other faiths as pollutions to be resisted or eradicated rather than as alternatives to be respected. And they characteristically have a linear view of history that leads toward the triumphal establishment of a perfect, eternal existence based on their beliefs. The three Abrahamic religions are of course the major examples of desert religions in the modern world.

One can make the argument that Forest Religions tend to be associated with cultures that are less expansionist, belligerent, and domineering than those shaped by Desert Religions. This history of Islamic and Christian European conquest and colonization supports this argument, although after all it's impossible to separate the influence of religion and culture from circumstances of geography and historical happenstance.

History is chock full of tantalizing “what ifs”, is it not? What if, for example, China hadn't been ruled by an increasingly ineffectual foreign dynasty throughout the 19th century, beset by massive internal rebellions and enormous natural disasters? And so on... Then too, the history of Japan shows that Forest Religions can be used to support nationalistic and militaristic ideologies, so it's not as if one type of religion is necessarily more peaceful, tolerant, and life-affirming than the other.

Still... tendencies persist.

One could argue that the kind of expansionist culture that Desert Religions fostered was useful or even essential in creating a civilization with the organization, drive, and mindset necessary to create a globally-interconnected and interdependent world. Who knows? In any case, now that we live in such a world, it looks as if the old Desert Religions are in the process of changing to look much more like a Forest Religion.

It'll be interesting to see who really ends up conquering whom, so to speak.

Cheers.
I think those are interesting lines of thought. But when you consider how strong Buddhism was in Japan, which was highly expansionistic for a time, as you noted, and also in China during the period when it was more expansionistic, and how the Maya and Mauryan empires, and pre-Christian Celts and Norse were all, arguably, forest religions (at least in the sense of being polytheistic religions from forested regions, without a unified religious hierarchy), and yet also expansionistic, belligerent, and domineering, I'm not sure I'm convinced. I think it's possible our thoughts about the natural hierarchy and belligerence of desert faiths may be a trick of history -- Islam and Christianity just happened to have been well positioned to expand into the vacuum left by the implosion of the Roman Empire, and so they became so huge as to dominate our conception of desert faiths.
 
I think those are interesting lines of thought. But when you consider how strong Buddhism was in Japan, which was highly expansionistic for a time, as you noted, and also in China during the period when it was more expansionistic, and how the Maya and Mauryan empires, and pre-Christian Celts and Norse were all, arguably, forest religions (at least in the sense of being polytheistic religions from forested regions, without a unified religious hierarchy), and yet also expansionistic, belligerent, and domineering, I'm not sure I'm convinced. I think it's possible our thoughts about the natural hierarchy and belligerence of desert faiths may be a trick of history -- Islam and Christianity just happened to have been well positioned to expand into the vacuum left by the implosion of the Roman Empire, and so they became so huge as to dominate our conception of desert faiths.

Well yes, again, it is more or less impossible to disentangle cause and effect when examining the history of cultural conquest, expansion, and decline. If you believe Jared Diamond's hypotheses, which make a lot of sense, then latitude shapes a culture's destiny as much as anything else. So you may very well be right that the apparent Desert Religion run of success is due more to historical accident than anything else. Certainly there have been belligerent, militaristic, expansionist cultures that embraced some variation of Forest Religions. In addition to the examples you cited, let's not overlook the Mongol empire – perhaps the largest, most ruthless empire the world has yet seen.

And yet...

In general those expansive Forest Religion empires were built by extremely capable and charismatic individuals who frequently managed to leverage some relatively newly-developed technological advantage. Moreover, those empires tended to be relatively short lived, with a somewhat ephemeral cultural influence and legacy. The Mongols conquered China and the near east, but they were fairly rapidly absorbed by the local cultures they ruled over, more or less. The northmen were similarly assimilated, more or less. Ashoka the Great didn't turn the Indian subcontinent permanently Buddhist, ironically enough.

Then again, the Mughals didn't come close to turning India wholly to Islam either. Some tasks are beyond even a singular deity, I guess. And European Christian culture hasn't yet proven itself to be notably more influential over time in Asia than any other foreign import.

So, who knows? I think a culture – and religion – that tends toward incorporation will survive and thrive over time as compared to a culture and religion that tends toward conversion and domination. It's a somewhat artificial distinction, I admit, because every culture encompasses both tendencies. But predominance matters often enough, don't you think?

Cheers.
 
Well yes, again, it is more or less impossible to disentangle cause and effect when examining the history of cultural conquest, expansion, and decline. If you believe Jared Diamond's hypotheses, which make a lot of sense, then latitude shapes a culture's destiny as much as anything else. So you may very well be right that the apparent Desert Religion run of success is due more to historical accident than anything else. Certainly there have been belligerent, militaristic, expansionist cultures that embraced some variation of Forest Religions. In addition to the examples you cited, let's not overlook the Mongol empire – perhaps the largest, most ruthless empire the world has yet seen.

And yet...

In general those expansive Forest Religion empires were built by extremely capable and charismatic individuals who frequently managed to leverage some relatively newly-developed technological advantage. Moreover, those empires tended to be relatively short lived, with a somewhat ephemeral cultural influence and legacy. The Mongols conquered China and the near east, but they were fairly rapidly absorbed by the local cultures they ruled over, more or less. The northmen were similarly assimilated, more or less. Ashoka the Great didn't turn the Indian subcontinent permanently Buddhist, ironically enough.

Then again, the Mughals didn't come close to turning India wholly to Islam either. Some tasks are beyond even a singular deity, I guess. And European Christian culture hasn't yet proven itself to be notably more influential over time in Asia than any other foreign import.

So, who knows? I think a culture – and religion – that tends toward incorporation will survive and thrive over time as compared to a culture and religion that tends toward conversion and domination. It's a somewhat artificial distinction, I admit, because every culture encompasses both tendencies. But predominance matters often enough, don't you think?

Cheers.
Thanks for your excellent thoughts on this. It has inspired me to do some more reading on the topic.
 
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