Pope vs. Vatican

[Arkady]

Here's an interesting story, in which the Pope clearly implies that there is salvation through Christ even for non-believers, and then a Vatican spokesman walks that back (implicitly saying that God will eternally torture all non-Catholics after they die):

http://www.salon.com/2013/05/28/vatican_sorry_atheists_cant_go_to_heaven_after_all/

That theological doctrine is so monstrous that I can hardly even imagine the kind of person who would embrace it. If you're going to imagine an infinitely Good deity, the idea that he would throw the vast majority of his creations into a pit of fire for all eternity, based mostly on where and when they were born (since most people practice the religion of their community), is horrifyingly hateful.

 

[Jen]

Both of those views are flawed (dare I say "wrong"?).
But the Catholic church strayed from anything biblical long before this pope came into office.
Like the religion of Islam, Catholicism is more a political creature than it is a religious creature. All religions are becoming political in nature and leaving the tenets of their origin. But it's nothing new. Interesting post/ story, Arkady. Thank you.

 

[JackDallas]

Just more heresy from the "God-in-the-Box" church.

Here's an interesting story, in which the Pope clearly implies that there is salvation through Christ even for non-believers, and then a Vatican spokesman walks that back (implicitly saying that God will eternally torture all non-Catholics after they die):

http://www.salon.com/2013/05/28/vatican_sorry_atheists_cant_go_to_heaven_after_all/

That theological doctrine is so monstrous that I can hardly even imagine the kind of person who would embrace it. If you're going to imagine an infinitely Good deity, the idea that he would throw the vast majority of his creations into a pit of fire for all eternity, based mostly on where and when they were born (since most people practice the religion of their community), is horrifyingly hateful.

 

[NightSwimmer]

Both of those views are flawed (dare I say "wrong"?).
But the Catholic church strayed from anything biblical long before this pope came into office.
Like the religion of Islam, Catholicism is more a political creature than it is a religious creature. All religions are becoming political in nature and leaving the tenets of their origin. But it's nothing new. Interesting post/ story, Arkady. Thank you.

The Protestant denominations are merely the step-children of Catholicism. None of them deviates very seriously from Roman doctrine.

 

[NightSwimmer]

This new Pope is making a lot of trouble for the Vatican. It was bad enough that they were having to explain away their exorcism policies for the past few weeks. Now he's telling people that they don't really have to join the Church in order to be saved from eternal damnation. Too funny!

 

[Mr. Friscus]

The Protestant denominations are merely the step-children of Catholicism. None of them deviates very seriously from Roman doctrine.

Not to mention there are thousands and thousands of different Protestant denominations... But, still the same Catholic Church since Jesus.

It leads to the conclusion that it is based on that person's or people's personal acceptance, and not "faith".

I mean, why in the hell would you leave your family, home, and source of income to follow some guy in the desert? If it were protestant, you'd just go somewhere else where you could have all of that AND be "holy".

That's why I crossed over from Protestant to Catholicism.

 

[NightSwimmer]

Not to mention there are thousands and thousands of different Protestant denominations... But, still the same Catholic Church since Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church didn't exist until almost 400 years after the time of Jesus.

 

[Jen]

I agree. To think otherwise is not to understand what organized religions are all about.

The Protestant denominations are merely the step-children of Catholicism. None of them deviates very seriously from Roman doctrine.

 

[Jen]

Excuse me for saying so, Mr Friscus............but you just substituted a small religious club for a large religious club with lots of age-old traditions and rituals. A relationship with your Creator is something not related to either Catholicism or Protestantism. Do you have that relationship? If so, you will know exactly what I am saying here.

Not to mention there are thousands and thousands of different Protestant denominations... But, still the same Catholic Church since Jesus.

It leads to the conclusion that it is based on that person's or people's personal acceptance, and not "faith".

I mean, why in the hell would you leave your family, home, and source of income to follow some guy in the desert? If it were protestant, you'd just go somewhere else where you could have all of that AND be "holy".

That's why I crossed over from Protestant to Catholicism.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Excuse me for saying so, Mr Friscus............but you just substituted a small religious club for a large religious club with lots of age-old traditions and rituals. A relationship with your Creator is something not related to either Catholicism or Protestantism. Do you have that relationship? If so, you will know exactly what I am saying here.

I know what you're saying, but if a bunch of people are running around freely claiming Christianity... they may, and do, come up with many different versions, a slippery slope that ultimately leads away from the religion.

An example: So many new age protestant churches don't even perform the eucharist (bread and wine).. even though it's as important a sacrament as ever in church history.

The church dealt with people leaving and creating their own forms of Christianity right off the bat.. that's why they had to consolidate and form one church.

In my opinion, Protestantism is slowly dividing and dividing people, and forms of "Christianity" are becoming further and further from the original.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

The Roman Catholic Church didn't exist until almost 400 years after the time of Jesus.

I said Catholic Church, nothing about Rome.

 

[Arkady]

Both of those views are flawed (dare I say "wrong"?).
But the Catholic church strayed from anything biblical long before this pope came into office.
Like the religion of Islam, Catholicism is more a political creature than it is a religious creature. All religions are becoming political in nature and leaving the tenets of their origin. But it's nothing new. Interesting post/ story, Arkady. Thank you.

I think it's a very, very good thing that all religions are becoming political in nature and leaving the tenets of their origin. I may have some very serious issues with the Catholic Church of today, but those issues are absolutely trivial next to the issues I have with the Catholic church from 100 or 1000 years ago.... or, especially, with the Old Testament savagery in which Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all rooted. The more those religions deviate from the tenets of their origins, the less evil they're likely to be.

 

[BrianDamage]

This new Pope is making a lot of trouble for the Vatican. It was bad enough that they were having to explain away their exorcism policies for the past few weeks. Now he's telling people that they don't really have to join the Church in order to be saved from eternal damnation. Too funny!

Bets on how long until he either retires, or passes on?

They elected a true believer this time. I don't expect they'll make that mistake again any time soon.

 

[fairsheet]

I don't get this thread. Can't ANY of you read? I went to the top-cite and what I see is NOT the Vatican-spokesman refuting or even "walking back" what The Pope said. All he's doing, is providing more detail.

I guess maybe...that people are misenterpreting the suggestion that those who "know", and choose to reject Christ, may not be welcomed into heaven. But..we'd be hardpressed to find ANYone who "knows" Christ or who "knows of" him, who specifically rejects him. If a Catholic switches to say...Methodism, he's obviously not rejecting Christ. If a Catholic switches to Islam, it's unlikely that he's specifically rejecting Christ. And...it's even the rare Atheist that specifically rejects Christ.

I think some may feel that if they don't believe in a man/God name of Jesus, that's tantamount to rejecting him. But, that's not the case at all. There's a reason why "they" say that Jesus is both man and God. That's because God represents the universal truth. The "universal truth" goes to how we treat one another, not what church we go do or don't go to.

To specifically "reject" Christ, we'd need to do things like claim that stealing, and raping, and murdering are "good".

 

[Jen]

Most likely, religions need to form, break apart when the human element corrupts them, then form again. We can't deny that we need that human network of believers. It is important. I do not believe that Jesus instituted the Catholic church. Jesus is the founder of all Christian churches, but the institution of the Roman Catholic church began well after the death of Jesus and his apostles. It breaks with biblical teachings in many ways just as all churches do. When the breaks are big enough, the church falls apart. The Catholic church, to its credit (perhaps, or maybe something more nefarious than "credit") has remained longer than any other Christian church. But it has done so through some very un-christian-like processes. I don't find any church to be irrelevant, but I just think that we need to understand that organized religions are merely helps and tools for us to be able to forge a personal relationship with our Creator. When we invest so much in the beliefs of a religion that we accept nonbiblical teachings then we are going a wrong direction. As an example, I point to one popular Protestant religious belief (Baptist for example) that the drinking of alcoholic beverages is sinful. Nowhere in the Bible will you find that teaching. Yet, if you want to be a member of a church that believes that drinking alcohol is sinful, you have to buy into that belief. God doesn't ask us to be sheep to our religion, he asks us to be shepherded by him.

I know what you're saying, but if a bunch of people are running around freely claiming Christianity... they may, and do, come up with many different versions, a slippery slope that ultimately leads away from the religion.

An example: So many new age protestant churches don't even perform the eucharist (bread and wine).. even though it's as important a sacrament as ever in church history.

The church dealt with people leaving and creating their own forms of Christianity right off the bat.. that's why they had to consolidate and form one church.

In my opinion, Protestantism is slowly dividing and dividing people, and forms of "Christianity" are becoming further and further from the original.

 

[fairsheet]

Your reference to some church's suggesting that drinking is sinful, hints at the same problem with some suggesting that being gay is sinful - or even that acting on that gayness is sinful.

To the extent that drinking is sinful, it's only to the extent that drinking causes us to do sinful things OR to not do things we should be doing. The same is true as to sexuality. To the extent our hetero OR Cuomo-sexuality fosters good, positive, and "Christlike" relationships, they're good. To the extent they don't, they aren't. That's true of BOTH straights and gays.

 

[Jen]

I can't disagree with you here, fairsheet.
You have pretty much summed up what I believe about homosexuality here.

Your reference to some church's suggesting that drinking is sinful, hints at the same problem with some suggesting that being gay is sinful - or even that acting on that gayness is sinful.

To the extent that drinking is sinful, it's only to the extent that drinking causes us to do sinful things OR to not do things we should be doing. The same is true as to sexuality. To the extent our hetero OR Cuomo-sexuality fosters good, positive, and "Christlike" relationships, they're good. To the extent they don't, they aren't. That's true of BOTH straights and gays.

 

[NightSwimmer]

I said Catholic Church, nothing about Rome.

I see. In that case, you weren't really referring to Catholicism at all, but to some idealized, all-encompassing "family" of Christianity? Would that "Catholic Church" also include the Arians and Gnostics?

 

[NightSwimmer]

I think it's a very, very good thing that all religions are becoming political in nature and leaving the tenets of their origin. I may have some very serious issues with the Catholic Church of today, but those issues are absolutely trivial next to the issues I have with the Catholic church from 100 or 1000 years ago.... or, especially, with the Old Testament savagery in which Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all rooted. The more those religions deviate from the tenets of their origins, the less evil they're likely to be.

Couldn't agree more with that sentiment.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I see. In that case, you weren't really referring to Catholicism at all, but to some idealized, all-encompassing "family" of Christianity? Would that "Catholic Church" also include the Arians and Gnostics?

I'm referring to THE Catholic church, the one Peter was told by Jesus he would lead. Sure, it wasn't called the "Catholic Church" yet.. but it's the same church.

Plenty split from the beliefs of the central Catholic church. You mentioned Gnostic and Arian...

As for Gnositic, does this sound "Christian" to you?

A one-sentence description of Gnosticism: a religion that differentiates the evil god of this world (who is identified with the god of the Old Testament) from a higher more abstract God revealed by Jesus Christ, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body, a religion that preaches a hidden wisdom or knowledge only to a select group as necessary for salvation or escape from this world.

Two Gods, a hidden wisdom, evil human bodies? All of those blatantly defy the bible.

As for Arian, they say God and Jesus are different people.

Is it hard to see why they were rejected? Or are religions not allowed to hold onto the beliefs that identify them?