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Pseudo stats

Arkady

President
Donald Trump, in his victory speech, said that unemployment may be over 40%. That is, of course, absurd. It's basically just redefining the term "unemployed" so that everyone 16 or older who doesn't have a job is unemployed -- including full-time students, retirees, the severely disabled, people here on visas that don't even let them work, full-time homemakers, and so on.

Specifically, the household survey says that 59.6% of the civilian non-institutionalized population 16 and older have jobs. That leaves 40.4% of them not working -- the mythical "unemployment" number. If you want to redefine the term that way, I guess that's just semantics and it doesn't matter. But the rhetorical punch of the talking point relies on people making an apples-to-oranges comparison, between that high figure and official unemployment rates of earlier eras that are much lower. If you redefine the term and do an apples-to-apples comparison, the view is very different. For example, although we now have 40.4% "unemployment," at the very height of our 1960s prosperity, in 1968, it was 42.2%. And back in the mid-1950s, "unemployment" was as high as 44.8%. Suddenly 40.4% sounds pretty damned good.

Trump may be a particularly shameless practitioner of this technique, but it's actually a widespread thing on the right. For example, other will refer to "real unemployment" as a stat that includes marginally attached workers (people who have given up looking), and those working part time for economic reasons (notwithstanding the silliness of a "real unemployment" stat that, by definition, includes employed people). When they do this, they likewise rely on people implicitly making an apples-to-oranges comparison between "real unemployment" today and standard unemployment in prior eras -- never addressing the fact that the decline in unemployment on Obama's watch is actually even greater if you do an apples-to-apples comparison using their alternative stat.

There's another game that right-wingers like to play, which is to select previously-obscure stats to harp on when the usual stats aren't telling them what they want to believe. For example, if unemployment is plummeting, focus on labor participation rates. If inflation is low, focus on some sub-set of consumer prices that's moving the other way (gas prices, if they're up, or the price of beef, or whatever you need to reach for). If every global survey of temperature shows an increase, focus on just satellite readings of a particular country. One of our posters here is particularly keen on this technique, though sometimes, when all the major indicators look good, it forces him to reach for arcana like the "Markit Flash US Composite PMI Output Index," to try to argue that everything's coming apart at the seams.

If you're interested in really understanding the world, rather than poring over data to try to find things that support your prejudices, it's a good idea to monitor your own use of stats. If you find that mostly you reference widely-referenced stats from mainstream sources (GDP, poverty, unemployment, median household incomes, the consumer price index, etc.), then it's a good sign. Even if you go for obscure or unusual stats, but you do so consistently, regardless of which way they're facing, and you have an argument for why they're more important than traditional stats, fine. But if you find yourself constantly having to reach for either invented statistics ("real unemployment," "misery index," Markit Flash Composites, etc.), and you pick them up and abandon them from month to month depending on what the latest numbers are saying, and you encourage apples-to-oranges comparisons, then stop and consider whether maybe this is a sign that you've gone hunting for stuff to bolster your prejudices, rather than material to inform your opinions.
 
Donald Trump, in his victory speech, said that unemployment may be over 40%. That is, of course, absurd. It's basically just redefining the term "unemployed" so that everyone 16 or older who doesn't have a job is unemployed -- including full-time students, retirees, the severely disabled, people here on visas that don't even let them work, full-time homemakers, and so on.

Specifically, the household survey says that 59.6% of the civilian non-institutionalized population 16 and older have jobs. That leaves 40.4% of them not working -- the mythical "unemployment" number. If you want to redefine the term that way, I guess that's just semantics and it doesn't matter. But the rhetorical punch of the talking point relies on people making an apples-to-oranges comparison, between that high figure and official unemployment rates of earlier eras that are much lower. If you redefine the term and do an apples-to-apples comparison, the view is very different. For example, although we now have 40.4% "unemployment," at the very height of our 1960s prosperity, in 1968, it was 42.2%. And back in the mid-1950s, "unemployment" was as high as 44.8%. Suddenly 40.4% sounds pretty damned good.

Trump may be a particularly shameless practitioner of this technique, but it's actually a widespread thing on the right. For example, other will refer to "real unemployment" as a stat that includes marginally attached workers (people who have given up looking), and those working part time for economic reasons (notwithstanding the silliness of a "real unemployment" stat that, by definition, includes employed people). When they do this, they likewise rely on people implicitly making an apples-to-oranges comparison between "real unemployment" today and standard unemployment in prior eras -- never addressing the fact that the decline in unemployment on Obama's watch is actually even greater if you do an apples-to-apples comparison using their alternative stat.

There's another game that right-wingers like to play, which is to select previously-obscure stats to harp on when the usual stats aren't telling them what they want to believe. For example, if unemployment is plummeting, focus on labor participation rates. If inflation is low, focus on some sub-set of consumer prices that's moving the other way (gas prices, if they're up, or the price of beef, or whatever you need to reach for). If every global survey of temperature shows an increase, focus on just satellite readings of a particular country. One of our posters here is particularly keen on this technique, though sometimes, when all the major indicators look good, it forces him to reach for arcana like the "Markit Flash US Composite PMI Output Index," to try to argue that everything's coming apart at the seams.

If you're interested in really understanding the world, rather than poring over data to try to find things that support your prejudices, it's a good idea to monitor your own use of stats. If you find that mostly you reference widely-referenced stats from mainstream sources (GDP, poverty, unemployment, median household incomes, the consumer price index, etc.), then it's a good sign. Even if you go for obscure or unusual stats, but you do so consistently, regardless of which way they're facing, and you have an argument for why they're more important than traditional stats, fine. But if you find yourself constantly having to reach for either invented statistics ("real unemployment," "misery index," Markit Flash Composites, etc.), and you pick them up and abandon them from month to month depending on what the latest numbers are saying, and you encourage apples-to-oranges comparisons, then stop and consider whether maybe this is a sign that you've gone hunting for stuff to bolster your prejudices, rather than material to inform your opinions.

In the 1950's most women stayed home. Today it takes two solid incomes to have a keep up with the Jones life style where in 1950 in only took one.

So I don't think we can compare the two eras.

I agree he should not be misquoting the unemployment rate. He should find something else to call it like maybe he wants everyone to have a job not just 60% of us.
 
In the 1950's most women stayed home. Today it takes two solid incomes to have a keep up with the Jones life style where in 1950 in only took one.

So I don't think we can compare the two eras.

I agree he should not be misquoting the unemployment rate. He should find something else to call it like maybe he wants everyone to have a job not just 60% of us.
Indeed. We need to be unquestioning in our allowing of lefty to vastly UNDERSTATE it, but top post outrage when Trump overstates it.

...Because it services The One (as usual).

You'll note that the usual suspects all toe the administration line on that. :)
 
In the 1950's most women stayed home. Today it takes two solid incomes to have a keep up with the Jones life style where in 1950 in only took one.

That's a complicated set of issues. Yes, in the 1950s, more women stayed home. Then, in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s, a lot fewer women did. That was also an era when median real household income was rising. It's not that you needed more workers per household to be able to afford the same stuff. It's that you needed more workers per household to be able to afford a lot more stuff. It was a cultural change in consumer expectations. Where previously one car and one television and one telephone and a 1400-square-foot home was perfectly acceptable for a middle-class family, later a similar family expected two cars, four tvs, mobile phones for everyone, and a 2200 square foot home.

Now, you can refuse to compare the eras, but once you go down that road, how do you get around refusals to compare the current era with previous ones? I mean, obviously, with Baby Boomers aging into their mid-50s and beyond, the percentage of Americans working would be expected to drop. And there have also been cultural changes -- changes that are subtler than those of earlier eras, but still important. There's been more of a rejection of naked consumerism and careerism. There's been a move towards more urban living, and a move away from car-focused lifestyles. There's even a counter-culture of rejecting McMansions and moving towards renting or modestly sized homes, both for lifestyle reasons and for environmental reasons. And there's been a gigantic increase in those pursuing higher education (which should be expected to put downward pressure on labor force participation rates for the young). This era is culturally different from the 80s and 90s just as the 80s and 90s were culturally different from the 50s. Yet, I think, you still have to compare across eras if you're going to get any reality-based understanding of what's going on with the economy.
 
US News and World Report, as well as other reputable sources, put the "employment rate" of people eligible to work (not kids, not retired, not disabled) at "62%"

Some 94 million people (38% of those eligible) are NOT working.

that sure looks like about 40% to me

http://www.usnews.com/news/the-repo...ow-but-more-workers-are-leaving-the-workforce
First, that's not what your link says. It says nothing about who is "eligible" for work. The denominator of the participation rate is civilian non-institutionalized population age 16 and over. That makes no claim about eligibility to work. Where did you get that misunderstanding?

Anyway, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about: selecting out a previously obscure statistic and harping on it, because you don't like what the more traditionally referenced stats are saying. And, of course, it's also an example of the implicit apples-to-oranges comparison I was talking about -- the shock value of that 40% figure relies on it being implicitly juxtaposed with much lower official unemployment rates of prior eras. What happens if you look at the same figure from, say, 1950, 1955, 1960, 1965, 1970, etc.? What you'll find is that the current figure no longer looks shocking when put into an apples-to-apples comparison. In fact, you'll find it looks pretty damned good.

Take a look at the Fred graph from your link. You'll see that current labor force participation rates are higher than at any point before the late 1970s. And although that data set only goes back to the late 1940s, if you could extend it back to the very founding of the nation, you'd see that in all that time, labor force participation rates were under 60%. Labor force participation rates higher than today are a thing that can only be found in one brief stretch in American history, driven by demographics. The Baby Boom generation went through its peak participation ages and dragged the nation as a whole up to unsustainable participation rates. Now they're older, and we're falling back down to more normal levels.

If you want to control for the demographics, you'd need to do age-controlled comparisons over time. Unfortunately, I can't find participation broken down in a fine-grained enough way to run those numbers (if you're relying on large blocks of ages, then your calculation will be meaningless, since the weighting of people within the blocks could make a huge difference).
 
That's a complicated set of issues. Yes, in the 1950s, more women stayed home. Then, in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s, a lot fewer women did. That was also an era when median real household income was rising. It's not that you needed more workers per household to be able to afford the same stuff. It's that you needed more workers per household to be able to afford a lot more stuff. It was a cultural change in consumer expectations. Where previously one car and one television and one telephone and a 1400-square-foot home was perfectly acceptable for a middle-class family, later a similar family expected two cars, four tvs, mobile phones for everyone, and a 2200 square foot home.

Now, you can refuse to compare the eras, but once you go down that road, how do you get around refusals to compare the current era with previous ones? I mean, obviously, with Baby Boomers aging into their mid-50s and beyond, the percentage of Americans working would be expected to drop. And there have also been cultural changes -- changes that are subtler than those of earlier eras, but still important. There's been more of a rejection of naked consumerism and careerism. There's been a move towards more urban living, and a move away from car-focused lifestyles. There's even a counter-culture of rejecting McMansions and moving towards renting or modestly sized homes, both for lifestyle reasons and for environmental reasons. And there's been a gigantic increase in those pursuing higher education (which should be expected to put downward pressure on labor force participation rates for the young). This era is culturally different from the 80s and 90s just as the 80s and 90s were culturally different from the 50s. Yet, I think, you still have to compare across eras if you're going to get any reality-based understanding of what's going on with the economy.

Yeah, and what happened to change all that?

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1969-1976/nixon-shock

Yep! All pretty much downhill after that...
 
Indeed. We need to be unquestioning in our allowing of lefty to vastly UNDERSTATE it, but top post outrage when Trump overstates it.

...Because it services The One (as usual).

You'll note that the usual suspects all toe the administration line on that. :)
Did you have any commentary about the substance of the issue, or do you just prefer to stick with the free-form personal insults?
 
Did you have any commentary about the substance of the issue, or do you just prefer to stick with the free-form personal insults?
"Personal insult" has a meaning. It requires not only insult, but it must be personally directed. It is astonishing how active many are to redefine things in order to suit themselves. It's almost like some are entitled.

The substance of the issue is that UE, as is popularly defined, doesn't begin to capture the full picture. What's more...if Trump were to be elected *wince*, you'd be challenging the very stats you now try to [selectively] trumpet.

Is unemployment at 40%? No. Is it anywhere in the 5s? Heck no. Not even close. Does Trump play fast and loose with his rhetoric? Absolutely. I'm no fan of his.
 
"Personal insult" has a meaning. It requires not only insult, but it must be personally directed. It is astonishing how active many are to redefine things in order to suit themselves. It's almost like some are entitled.

Reread what you wrote. Now think about it. See your error yet? Nah, I doubt it.

The substance of the issue I presented was about using obscure stats or stats that encourage apples to oranges comparisons to push an agenda. I don't do that. But you don't want to talk about that substance. You want to post the single thing you ever post: "damn those lefties are hypocrites." You've posted it a thousand times and will post it a thousand more, because that's your one thought.

As for unemployment, no, you're right, unemployment isn't anywhere in the 5s. It's 4.9. Try to keep up with the news if you want to discuss such things.
 
Donald Trump, in his victory speech, said that unemployment may be over 40%. That is, of course, absurd. It's basically just redefining the term "unemployed" so that everyone 16 or older who doesn't have a job is unemployed -- including full-time students, retirees, the severely disabled, people here on visas that don't even let them work, full-time homemakers, and so on.

Specifically, the household survey says that 59.6% of the civilian non-institutionalized population 16 and older have jobs. That leaves 40.4% of them not working -- the mythical "unemployment" number. If you want to redefine the term that way, I guess that's just semantics and it doesn't matter. But the rhetorical punch of the talking point relies on people making an apples-to-oranges comparison, between that high figure and official unemployment rates of earlier eras that are much lower. If you redefine the term and do an apples-to-apples comparison, the view is very different. For example, although we now have 40.4% "unemployment," at the very height of our 1960s prosperity, in 1968, it was 42.2%. And back in the mid-1950s, "unemployment" was as high as 44.8%. Suddenly 40.4% sounds pretty damned good.

Trump may be a particularly shameless practitioner of this technique, but it's actually a widespread thing on the right. For example, other will refer to "real unemployment" as a stat that includes marginally attached workers (people who have given up looking), and those working part time for economic reasons (notwithstanding the silliness of a "real unemployment" stat that, by definition, includes employed people). When they do this, they likewise rely on people implicitly making an apples-to-oranges comparison between "real unemployment" today and standard unemployment in prior eras -- never addressing the fact that the decline in unemployment on Obama's watch is actually even greater if you do an apples-to-apples comparison using their alternative stat.

There's another game that right-wingers like to play, which is to select previously-obscure stats to harp on when the usual stats aren't telling them what they want to believe. For example, if unemployment is plummeting, focus on labor participation rates. If inflation is low, focus on some sub-set of consumer prices that's moving the other way (gas prices, if they're up, or the price of beef, or whatever you need to reach for). If every global survey of temperature shows an increase, focus on just satellite readings of a particular country. One of our posters here is particularly keen on this technique, though sometimes, when all the major indicators look good, it forces him to reach for arcana like the "Markit Flash US Composite PMI Output Index," to try to argue that everything's coming apart at the seams.

If you're interested in really understanding the world, rather than poring over data to try to find things that support your prejudices, it's a good idea to monitor your own use of stats. If you find that mostly you reference widely-referenced stats from mainstream sources (GDP, poverty, unemployment, median household incomes, the consumer price index, etc.), then it's a good sign. Even if you go for obscure or unusual stats, but you do so consistently, regardless of which way they're facing, and you have an argument for why they're more important than traditional stats, fine. But if you find yourself constantly having to reach for either invented statistics ("real unemployment," "misery index," Markit Flash Composites, etc.), and you pick them up and abandon them from month to month depending on what the latest numbers are saying, and you encourage apples-to-oranges comparisons, then stop and consider whether maybe this is a sign that you've gone hunting for stuff to bolster your prejudices, rather than material to inform your opinions.

I thought this was going to be your confession. Oh well...
 
I thought this was going to be your confession. Oh well...
I try very hard to use stats in a consistent and transparent way. If you see me stooping to the kind of behavior I'm talking about here (e.g., if I start reaching for some obscurity like the Markit Flash US Composite PMI Output Index to argue everything is peachy at a time when all the major indicators are getting worse), please be sure to call me out on it, so I can clean up my act. I'd hate to descend to that level, if only because of the company.
 
I try very hard to use stats in a consistent and transparent way. If you see me stooping to the kind of behavior I'm talking about here (e.g., if I start reaching for some obscurity like the Markit Flash US Composite PMI Output Index to argue everything is peachy at a time when all the major indicators are getting worse), please be sure to call me out on it, so I can clean up my act. I'd hate to descend to that level, if only because of the company.

I think the problem is your willingness to accept without question whatever you're told by the nearest government employee (at least when a Democrat is in the White House).
 
I think the problem is your willingness to accept without question whatever you're told by the nearest government employee (at least when a Democrat is in the White House).
I go with the best available evidence. If someone can make a decent argument why that isn't the official stat, but rather some other stat, I'm all ears. But that's not how things typically go here. Instead, I cite the best available stats I can find, and the right-wingers respond with vague outrage, because the stats aren't consistent with their gut feelings; then they hunt around for some blogger who has identified an arcane stat more consistent with their feelings, and offer that up, without any argument for why it's more credible. As you would expect, this doesn't convince any sane person.
 
I try very hard to use stats in a consistent and transparent way. If you see me stooping to the kind of behavior I'm talking about here (e.g., if I start reaching for some obscurity like the Markit Flash US Composite PMI Output Index to argue everything is peachy at a time when all the major indicators are getting worse), please be sure to call me out on it, so I can clean up my act. I'd hate to descend to that level, if only because of the company.

http://www.freshplaza.com/article/1...worse-than-it-was-during-the-financial-crisis

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VK02Y

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-10/inflation-expectations-around-globe-just-hit-record-lows

http://www.reuters.com/article/deutsche-cds-idUSL8N15Q3QE

Nothing to see here folks, move along. The official government reports continue to show a strong recovery. There is no, we repeat, no chance of the US slipping into recession.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/wsj-sur...timates-amid-rising-recession-risk-1455202801

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/11/us-markets.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ses-on-yellen-rate-comments-oil-back-below-28

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...-confidence-gold-bank-deposits-or-paper-money

Now, for your comic relief:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/yo...t-more-than-the-dow-economist-says-2016-02-11
 
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As @Arkady indicated, he only uses certified, fully-cooked DNC stats. Take heart, though, when a Republican gains the White House, he'll no longer trust official stats, they'll all be lies...
No. As people who knew me on other forums can attest, I cited the same stats when Bush was president -- you know, the stats showing soaring unemployment rates, soaring poverty, soaring deficits, a collapsing stock market, soaring consumer debt, stubbornly high murder rates, poor GDP growth, falling median real household incomes, a weakening dollar, etc. And the few who knew me back in the Clinton years can confirm I cited the same stats, back then, when they showed across-the-board improvement.

Now, to be fair, one could assert that the only reason I'm able to cite the same major stats so consistently is because they happen to show consistent disasters during Republican presidencies, and an overall pattern of improvement during Democratic presidencies. One could assert that if I didn't have reality on my side, I'd be just as guilty of hunting around for obscure alternate stats to try to make my case. I can't, of course, disprove that. With the luxury of the statistical reality on my side both in damning Republicans and praising Democrats, the theory that I'd be a hack but for the luxury of having reality on my side has never been tested.
 
More people getting benefits than are tax payers lol
sC1jHrp.png
 
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