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Scientology

Arkady

President
Has anyone seen the documentary "Going Clear"? It's an expose on Scientology, which portrays the religion in a decidedly negative light. It makes for some entertaining viewing, and it's hard to come away from it without the view that L. Ron Hubbard was a mentally damaged charlatan, and his spiritual heir, David Miscavige, is a totalitarian sadist.

However, as a outsider to religion, the enthusiasm with which Hollywood has embraced the take-down of Scientology seems strange to me. If you made a similar film about, say, Judaism, Islam, or Catholicism, it would be marginalized and denounced by most liberals. As Neil Degrasse Tyson said, summarizing the double-standard "If you’ve been around 1,000 years you’re a religion, and if you’ve been around 100 years, you’re a cult."

You can see a kind of middle-distance between the two extremes with Mormonism. It's old enough that we treat is as religious bigotry for someone to automatically dismiss its followers as brainwashed freaks and to openly ridicule them for their faith. Yet it's young enough that you can get away with making fun of those beliefs in an impersonal way in "polite company" (e.g., "magic underwear" jokes).

From the outsider perspective, of course the beliefs of Scientology look silly (Xenu chaining aliens to volcanoes and blowing them up with hydrogen bombs, releasing thetans that cause us spiritual harm unless we use our e-meters to audit them away.) So do the beliefs of Mormonism (Joseph Smith finding gold plates in New York detailing the adventures of Israelite Christians in the Americas a couple thousand years ago). And so do the beliefs of Islam (Muhammed's flight on a winged steed to Jerusalem to chat with long-dead prophets). And Catholicism (priests magically transforming bread and wine into flesh and blood for a cannibalistic ritual). And Judaism (a ninety year old woman having a child by a 100-year-old man).

In a sense, the older nonsense is more forgivable, in that it came from a more ancient time when people didn't know as much. In the same sense, a truly ancient myth like those in Theogony is a little less embarrassing than an upstart myth like the one of Jesus, coming from a much later and more sophisticated era, when people really ought to have known better. It's easier to see how people in the age before science could be taken in by a charlatan pushing a Zeus myth, but harder to see how someone living near the height of the Roman empire could be taken in by a charlatan like Jesus. So, I get why very recent vintage nonsense like Scientology strikes people as particularly silly. But if it had been around as long as those older tales, wouldn't familiarity have dulled that sense of goofiness?

Anyway, I worry that Scientologists will be genuinely persecuted and discriminated against, given the glee with which people have been tearing into the religion. I've even seen it on the job, with amused whispers about a coworker who is a Scientologist -- whispers that those people would never dream at directing against a Muslim, Jew, etc.
 
Has anyone seen the documentary "Going Clear"? It's an expose on Scientology, which portrays the religion in a decidedly negative light. It makes for some entertaining viewing, and it's hard to come away from it without the view that L. Ron Hubbard was a mentally damaged charlatan, and his spiritual heir, David Miscavige, is a totalitarian sadist.

However, as a outsider to religion, the enthusiasm with which Hollywood has embraced the take-down of Scientology seems strange to me. If you made a similar film about, say, Judaism, Islam, or Catholicism, it would be marginalized and denounced by most liberals. As Neil Degrasse Tyson said, summarizing the double-standard "If you’ve been around 1,000 years you’re a religion, and if you’ve been around 100 years, you’re a cult."

You can see a kind of middle-distance between the two extremes with Mormonism. It's old enough that we treat is as religious bigotry for someone to automatically dismiss its followers as brainwashed freaks and to openly ridicule them for their faith. Yet it's young enough that you can get away with making fun of those beliefs in an impersonal way in "polite company" (e.g., "magic underwear" jokes).

From the outsider perspective, of course the beliefs of Scientology look silly (Xenu chaining aliens to volcanoes and blowing them up with hydrogen bombs, releasing thetans that cause us spiritual harm unless we use our e-meters to audit them away.) So do the beliefs of Mormonism (Joseph Smith finding gold plates in New York detailing the adventures of Israelite Christians in the Americas a couple thousand years ago). And so do the beliefs of Islam (Muhammed's flight on a winged steed to Jerusalem to chat with long-dead prophets). And Catholicism (priests magically transforming bread and wine into flesh and blood for a cannibalistic ritual). And Judaism (a ninety year old woman having a child by a 100-year-old man).

In a sense, the older nonsense is more forgivable, in that it came from a more ancient time when people didn't know as much. In the same sense, a truly ancient myth like those in Theogony is a little less embarrassing than an upstart myth like the one of Jesus, coming from a much later and more sophisticated era, when people really ought to have known better. It's easier to see how people in the age before science could be taken in by a charlatan pushing a Zeus myth, but harder to see how someone living near the height of the Roman empire could be taken in by a charlatan like Jesus. So, I get why very recent vintage nonsense like Scientology strikes people as particularly silly. But if it had been around as long as those older tales, wouldn't familiarity have dulled that sense of goofiness?

Anyway, I worry that Scientologists will be genuinely persecuted and discriminated against, given the glee with which people have been tearing into the religion. I've even seen it on the job, with amused whispers about a coworker who is a Scientologist -- whispers that those people would never dream at directing against a Muslim, Jew, etc.

Well said and I agree. New religions with "miracles" have a very small chance of survival in todays world.

Isn't their like 30 people who claim they are Jesus living right now. No one believes them.
 
Well said and I agree. New religions with "miracles" have a very small chance of survival in todays world.

Isn't their like 30 people who claim they are Jesus living right now. No one believes them.
Yes. It's funny -- if miracles were possible and Jesus really did return, it's likely he'd come and go with very few believing he was anything other than a crackpot. Even if he performed miracles, unless he did so repeatedly, under controlled circumstances, he'd be assumed to be a mere trickster. And if he could do them repeatedly, under controlled circumstances, then he'd probably be murdered in a hurry, most likely by Christians who would convince themselves it was some sort of blasphemous dark magic... especially if Jesus would pushing any kind of message that rocked their boat (e.g., give away all your wealth or you won't go to Heaven).
 
Has anyone seen the documentary "Going Clear"? It's an expose on Scientology, which portrays the religion in a decidedly negative light. It makes for some entertaining viewing, and it's hard to come away from it without the view that L. Ron Hubbard was a mentally damaged charlatan, and his spiritual heir, David Miscavige, is a totalitarian sadist.

However, as a outsider to religion, the enthusiasm with which Hollywood has embraced the take-down of Scientology seems strange to me. If you made a similar film about, say, Judaism, Islam, or Catholicism, it would be marginalized and denounced by most liberals. As Neil Degrasse Tyson said, summarizing the double-standard "If you’ve been around 1,000 years you’re a religion, and if you’ve been around 100 years, you’re a cult."

You can see a kind of middle-distance between the two extremes with Mormonism. It's old enough that we treat is as religious bigotry for someone to automatically dismiss its followers as brainwashed freaks and to openly ridicule them for their faith. Yet it's young enough that you can get away with making fun of those beliefs in an impersonal way in "polite company" (e.g., "magic underwear" jokes).

From the outsider perspective, of course the beliefs of Scientology look silly (Xenu chaining aliens to volcanoes and blowing them up with hydrogen bombs, releasing thetans that cause us spiritual harm unless we use our e-meters to audit them away.) So do the beliefs of Mormonism (Joseph Smith finding gold plates in New York detailing the adventures of Israelite Christians in the Americas a couple thousand years ago). And so do the beliefs of Islam (Muhammed's flight on a winged steed to Jerusalem to chat with long-dead prophets). And Catholicism (priests magically transforming bread and wine into flesh and blood for a cannibalistic ritual). And Judaism (a ninety year old woman having a child by a 100-year-old man).

In a sense, the older nonsense is more forgivable, in that it came from a more ancient time when people didn't know as much. In the same sense, a truly ancient myth like those in Theogony is a little less embarrassing than an upstart myth like the one of Jesus, coming from a much later and more sophisticated era, when people really ought to have known better. It's easier to see how people in the age before science could be taken in by a charlatan pushing a Zeus myth, but harder to see how someone living near the height of the Roman empire could be taken in by a charlatan like Jesus. So, I get why very recent vintage nonsense like Scientology strikes people as particularly silly. But if it had been around as long as those older tales, wouldn't familiarity have dulled that sense of goofiness?

Anyway, I worry that Scientologists will be genuinely persecuted and discriminated against, given the glee with which people have been tearing into the religion. I've even seen it on the job, with amused whispers about a coworker who is a Scientologist -- whispers that those people would never dream at directing against a Muslim, Jew, etc.

I saw that program.

I did see parallels between Scientology and many organized religions.
In order to get and keep people in a religion a little fear and guilt has to be injected. That fear and guilt may be defined as "abuse" in some cases if it goes too far.

Physical abuse .......especially when someone wants to leave a religion..... goes beyond what is acceptable. In all Christian religions I can think of, a person may leave the religion without fear of physical retribution. Mormons can leave as far as I know. Muslims? Not at all. And apparently Scientologists get dirt on people (especially famous ones) so they cannot leave. Deal breaker to me if I were shopping for a religion.

One reason that longevity is thought of as a benchmark of a "real" religion is that fads come and go and some "religions" are just fads and they won't last. That means they weren't "religions" after all. The test of time is a good one.

People always "whisper" about someone for some reason. Don't worry about it.

I am not a fan of organized religions for obvious reasons. I want a relationship with God but I don't want someone's rules imposed on that relationship.
 
Yes. It's funny -- if miracles were possible and Jesus really did return, it's likely he'd come and go with very few believing he was anything other than a crackpot. Even if he performed miracles, unless he did so repeatedly, under controlled circumstances, he'd be assumed to be a mere trickster. And if he could do them repeatedly, under controlled circumstances, then he'd probably be murdered in a hurry, most likely by Christians who would convince themselves it was some sort of blasphemous dark magic... especially if Jesus would pushing any kind of message that rocked their boat (e.g., give away all your wealth or you won't go to Heaven).

You should actually read the bible some time, instead of merely claiming you have. Or did you read it, and your comprehension is just so poor, that's all you got out of it? Could be either one, I suppose...
 
Has anyone seen the documentary "Going Clear"? It's an expose on Scientology, which portrays the religion in a decidedly negative light. It makes for some entertaining viewing, and it's hard to come away from it without the view that L. Ron Hubbard was a mentally damaged charlatan, and his spiritual heir, David Miscavige, is a totalitarian sadist.

However, as a outsider to religion, the enthusiasm with which Hollywood has embraced the take-down of Scientology seems strange to me. If you made a similar film about, say, Judaism, Islam, or Catholicism, it would be marginalized and denounced by most liberals. As Neil Degrasse Tyson said, summarizing the double-standard "If you’ve been around 1,000 years you’re a religion, and if you’ve been around 100 years, you’re a cult."

You can see a kind of middle-distance between the two extremes with Mormonism. It's old enough that we treat is as religious bigotry for someone to automatically dismiss its followers as brainwashed freaks and to openly ridicule them for their faith. Yet it's young enough that you can get away with making fun of those beliefs in an impersonal way in "polite company" (e.g., "magic underwear" jokes).

From the outsider perspective, of course the beliefs of Scientology look silly (Xenu chaining aliens to volcanoes and blowing them up with hydrogen bombs, releasing thetans that cause us spiritual harm unless we use our e-meters to audit them away.) So do the beliefs of Mormonism (Joseph Smith finding gold plates in New York detailing the adventures of Israelite Christians in the Americas a couple thousand years ago). And so do the beliefs of Islam (Muhammed's flight on a winged steed to Jerusalem to chat with long-dead prophets). And Catholicism (priests magically transforming bread and wine into flesh and blood for a cannibalistic ritual). And Judaism (a ninety year old woman having a child by a 100-year-old man).

In a sense, the older nonsense is more forgivable, in that it came from a more ancient time when people didn't know as much. In the same sense, a truly ancient myth like those in Theogony is a little less embarrassing than an upstart myth like the one of Jesus, coming from a much later and more sophisticated era, when people really ought to have known better. It's easier to see how people in the age before science could be taken in by a charlatan pushing a Zeus myth, but harder to see how someone living near the height of the Roman empire could be taken in by a charlatan like Jesus. So, I get why very recent vintage nonsense like Scientology strikes people as particularly silly. But if it had been around as long as those older tales, wouldn't familiarity have dulled that sense of goofiness?

Anyway, I worry that Scientologists will be genuinely persecuted and discriminated against, given the glee with which people have been tearing into the religion. I've even seen it on the job, with amused whispers about a coworker who is a Scientologist -- whispers that those people would never dream at directing against a Muslim, Jew, etc.

All organized religions are cults, but Scientology does seem to be stranger than most.

If, as the documentary says, the Scientologists stalk and other wise make miserable the lives of those who leave that "church," that does seem to set them apart. I don't think most Christian sects or Jews do that. Some Muslims also react violently if someone leaves the "faith," but that does not seem to be a central tenet of Islam.

In the end, they're all nuts, but some are nuttier than others.
 
Has anyone seen the documentary "Going Clear"? It's an expose on Scientology, which portrays the religion in a decidedly negative light. It makes for some entertaining viewing, and it's hard to come away from it without the view that L. Ron Hubbard was a mentally damaged charlatan, and his spiritual heir, David Miscavige, is a totalitarian sadist.

However, as a outsider to religion, the enthusiasm with which Hollywood has embraced the take-down of Scientology seems strange to me. If you made a similar film about, say, Judaism, Islam, or Catholicism, it would be marginalized and denounced by most liberals. As Neil Degrasse Tyson said, summarizing the double-standard "If you’ve been around 1,000 years you’re a religion, and if you’ve been around 100 years, you’re a cult."

You can see a kind of middle-distance between the two extremes with Mormonism. It's old enough that we treat is as religious bigotry for someone to automatically dismiss its followers as brainwashed freaks and to openly ridicule them for their faith. Yet it's young enough that you can get away with making fun of those beliefs in an impersonal way in "polite company" (e.g., "magic underwear" jokes).

From the outsider perspective, of course the beliefs of Scientology look silly (Xenu chaining aliens to volcanoes and blowing them up with hydrogen bombs, releasing thetans that cause us spiritual harm unless we use our e-meters to audit them away.) So do the beliefs of Mormonism (Joseph Smith finding gold plates in New York detailing the adventures of Israelite Christians in the Americas a couple thousand years ago). And so do the beliefs of Islam (Muhammed's flight on a winged steed to Jerusalem to chat with long-dead prophets). And Catholicism (priests magically transforming bread and wine into flesh and blood for a cannibalistic ritual). And Judaism (a ninety year old woman having a child by a 100-year-old man).

In a sense, the older nonsense is more forgivable, in that it came from a more ancient time when people didn't know as much. In the same sense, a truly ancient myth like those in Theogony is a little less embarrassing than an upstart myth like the one of Jesus, coming from a much later and more sophisticated era, when people really ought to have known better. It's easier to see how people in the age before science could be taken in by a charlatan pushing a Zeus myth, but harder to see how someone living near the height of the Roman empire could be taken in by a charlatan like Jesus. So, I get why very recent vintage nonsense like Scientology strikes people as particularly silly. But if it had been around as long as those older tales, wouldn't familiarity have dulled that sense of goofiness?

Anyway, I worry that Scientologists will be genuinely persecuted and discriminated against, given the glee with which people have been tearing into the religion. I've even seen it on the job, with amused whispers about a coworker who is a Scientologist -- whispers that those people would never dream at directing against a Muslim, Jew, etc.

Well, there would be nothing to worry about as far as "real" discrimination if people were actually tolerant rather than pretending to be tolerant which accounts for having a few pet issues and supporting them and hating on anyone who doesn't share your POV.

But, since what passes for "tolerance" today equates to trying to shout down and malign anyone who doesn't agree with you, attempting to bully them out of their jobs, their businesses and their homes..

Well, then yes, there is cause for concern that these people will be a targeted for discrimination. We have forgotten how to agree to disagree and then just politely avoid/ignore each other. It is a lost art.. much like if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all is a concept long forgotten.


connie
 
From the outsider perspective, of course the beliefs of Scientology look silly (Xenu chaining aliens to volcanoes and blowing them up with hydrogen bombs, releasing thetans that cause us spiritual harm unless we use our e-meters to audit them away.) So do the beliefs of Mormonism (Joseph Smith finding gold plates in New York detailing the adventures of Israelite Christians in the Americas a couple thousand years ago). And so do the beliefs of Islam (Muhammed's flight on a winged steed to Jerusalem to chat with long-dead prophets). And Catholicism (priests magically transforming bread and wine into flesh and blood for a cannibalistic ritual). And Judaism (a ninety year old woman having a child by a 100-year-old man).

I suppose it all depends upon the presentation. After all, if I were a Christian and some guy I didn't know told me that the universe was created just out of the blue when nothing exploded for no discernible reason forming all of the complex life that is all around you, which may not even exist in the first place, I think I might might be a little skeptical myself.

After all, batshit crazy is all in the eyes of the beholder.
 
I saw that program.

I did see parallels between Scientology and many organized religions.
In order to get and keep people in a religion a little fear and guilt has to be injected. That fear and guilt may be defined as "abuse" in some cases if it goes too far.

Physical abuse .......especially when someone wants to leave a religion..... goes beyond what is acceptable. In all Christian religions I can think of, a person may leave the religion without fear of physical retribution. Mormons can leave as far as I know. Muslims? Not at all. And apparently Scientologists get dirt on people (especially famous ones) so they cannot leave. Deal breaker to me if I were shopping for a religion.

One reason that longevity is thought of as a benchmark of a "real" religion is that fads come and go and some "religions" are just fads and they won't last. That means they weren't "religions" after all. The test of time is a good one.

People always "whisper" about someone for some reason. Don't worry about it.

I am not a fan of organized religions for obvious reasons. I want a relationship with God but I don't want someone's rules imposed on that relationship.
In advanced countries leaving Christianity tends to be a non violent thing, these days. I wouldn't recommend trying it somewhere like Uganda, though.
 
You should actually read the bible some time, instead of merely claiming you have. Or did you read it, and your comprehension is just so poor, that's all you got out of it? Could be either one, I suppose...
I read it cover to cover. What makes you think otherwise in what I said, specifically?
 
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