Soooo

[nfp guy]

My gang goes to a homeschool group once a week, where they get together with, right now, three other families. One other family is Catholic, one is officially neutral on religion, and one family is also agnostic/neutral/recovering from her evangelical missionary parents. So, my guys, four Catholic kids counting the two year old, other family, three Catholic kids with their one year old, four from the neutral family, and one from the last family. My family and the neutral family host the group on alternating basis. The issue of saying grace before lunch has, amazingly to me, apparently become an issue.

there was much discussion about how faith would neither be checked at the door nor imposed on the others. Before lunch, my bride will gather our kids together and say our grace - - not whispered, not in another room, but we don't take over the room either. The religion-neutrals are good with this, but our Catholic friend is not. Sometimes, as I understand it, her kids will be at different ends of the table, and she will have them say grace, apparently with the other kids at the table as well (not that they participate). I can certainly understand that the neutrals could see this as an improper influence, especially since the Catholic kids outnumber the neutrals, and this sort of thing was discussed. What I am surprised about is that our Catholic friend does not see it. I think this is especially true since it involves respecting the parental authority of the other families, and second, it involves very young kids. Our friend may leave the group over this issue. I think it is plainly just being respectful of others. I realize this board will generally think even allowing the grace to be said is wrong ( and of course some here apparently think even teaching religion is inappropriate), but am I missing something?

I am also posting because in the post-mortem of the last group wherein this issue was discussed, the religion-neutrals, who are pro-Obama, did not seem to realize that "under God" is of very recent vintage in the pledge. I can understand our Catholic friend not knowing, but the others?

 

[fairsheet]

Blessusolordandthesethygiftswhichweareabouttoreceivefromthybountythroughchristourlordamen.

What's that take...3 seconds? It's a tad unclear what you're asking here, but maybe the solution is for the grace-sayers to just pick up the pace a tad, and nobody will be the wiser. All it takes is a little practice.

 

[BobbyT]

Ours was "God is great, God is good, let us thank him for our food. By His hand we all are fed, thank You for our daily bread, amen."

When other kids came to my parent's house for dinner, they had no problem waiting the few seconds for us to say grace. Most didn't say it in their house, but they weren't bothered by the fact that we did. Different families have different rules during meals. Some ask every person at the table to tell a little about their day, some eat dinner in front of the TV and don't talk to one another, some ban any controversial subjects, some relish them, some require the kids to excuse themselves from the table when they're done eating, some do not. Kids know that different families have different rules and that some families are religious.

What I don't understand is saying grace at someone else's house if they don't practice that. To be polite, guests follow the rules of the hosting household. If I go to a place that doesn't say grace, no big deal. If I go to a place that does say grace, then I wait respectfully for them to finish (I'm not religious). I think good manners (i.e., how to behave in another person's house) are more important to teach children than that grace should be said at every meal no matter what. Saying grace is a nice way to acknowledge God's hand in providing, if one believes in God. But is should not be taught as a dogmatic practice that is never left out - doing that teaches that religion is something that one does rather than something one feels. Children can always say a silent blessing in their head if they feel so inclined. Insisting on having to say grace publicly makes it a show for others and detracts from the communing with God aspect.

 

[Friday13]

What I don't understand is saying grace at someone else's house if they don't practice that. To be polite, guests follow the rules of the hosting household. If I go to a place that doesn't say grace, no big deal. If I go to a place that does say grace, then I wait respectfully for them to finish (I'm not religious). I think good manners (i.e., how to behave in another person's house) are more important to teach children than that grace should be said at every meal no matter what. Saying grace is a nice way to acknowledge God's hand in providing, if one believes in God. But is should not be taught as a dogmatic practice that is never left out - doing that teaches that religion is something that one does rather than something one feels. Children can always say a silent blessing in their head if they feel so inclined. Insisting on having to say grace publicly makes it a show for others and detracts from the communing with God aspect.

Yep...

 

[RedCloud]

Blessusolordandthesethygiftswhichweareabouttoreceivefromthybountythroughchristourlordamen.

What's that take...3 seconds? It's a tad unclear what you're asking here, but maybe the solution is for the grace-sayers to just pick up the pace a tad, and nobody will be the wiser. All it takes is a little practice.

Bless this bread, bless this meat, bless us all, now lets eat!

 

[fairsheet]

Bless this bread, bless this meat, bless us all, now lets eat!

My dad was about the devoutist Catholic you'd ever meet (in the John XXIII vein, not the JP II vein) and we always had to do "Grace" before dinner. We got pretty efficient at it. But...we didn't bother with it in public, or before any other meal time. Maybe he ended up in the burning fires of hell for not making a bigger issue out of "Grace", but I don't think so.

 

[RedCloud]

Ours was "God is great, God is good, let us thank him for our food. By His hand we all are fed, thank You for our daily bread, amen."

When other kids came to my parent's house for dinner, they had no problem waiting the few seconds for us to say grace. Most didn't say it in their house, but they weren't bothered by the fact that we did. Different families have different rules during meals. Some ask every person at the table to tell a little about their day, some eat dinner in front of the TV and don't talk to one another, some ban any controversial subjects, some relish them, some require the kids to excuse themselves from the table when they're done eating, some do not. Kids know that different families have different rules and that some families are religious.

What I don't understand is saying grace at someone else's house if they don't practice that. To be polite, guests follow the rules of the hosting household. If I go to a place that doesn't say grace, no big deal. If I go to a place that does say grace, then I wait respectfully for them to finish (I'm not religious). I think good manners (i.e., how to behave in another person's house) are more important to teach children than that grace should be said at every meal no matter what. Saying grace is a nice way to acknowledge God's hand in providing, if one believes in God. But is should not be taught as a dogmatic practice that is never left out - doing that teaches that religion is something that one does rather than something one feels. Children can always say a silent blessing in their head if they feel so inclined. Insisting on having to say grace publicly makes it a show for others and detracts from the communing with God aspect.

Bobby, I agree. I'm an Atheist/Agnostic, but when I have people who are religious dining with me in my home, I ask them if they would like to say grace.

 

[RedCloud]

My dad was about the devoutist Catholic you'd ever meet (in the John XXIII vein, not the JP II vein) and we always had to do "Grace" before dinner. We got pretty efficient at it. But...we didn't bother with it in public, or before any other meal time. Maybe he ended up in the burning fires of hell for not making a bigger issue out of "Grace", but I don't think so.

Fair, even though you profess to being Catholic, I think you take your religion in about the same manner as does MaryAnne hers. I think both of you walk the walk and not just talk the talk. I respect that.

 

[nfp guy]

@fairsheet: Well, I was asking if I was missing something, as you guys are a smart bunch, even if the board would generally come at this issue from a different perspective. I think it is a) reasonable for the grace-saying families to do so, no matter where they are (especially since it was specifically discussed prior to the group forming), but b) to do so in a way that is respectful of the different viewpoints on that, given especially that there are children involved. I think our friend could assemble her kids and say grace with them without involving the whole group, yet without whispering it or retreating to another room, for example.

 

[nfp guy]

@BobbyT: I am about 80% in agreement here, I think. If guests follow the rules of the hosting household in general, then you as a guest would participate in the grace, no? I do not think that would be right. By the same token, it is possible to say a quiet, unobtrusive blessing if that is the guest/family's practice. Again, the issue was specifically addressed among the moms who were forming the group, although our friend who is now having the issue was not in that initial group.

I think what the moms are trying to achieve is to allow for practice without making seem to the kids like that is what the group, as a whole, does.

 

[nfp guy]

@RedCloud: Past the lips, over the gums, watch out stomach, here it comes?

We were at a family retreat this summer, and there were, for lack of a better term, "themed" graces, like "Superman": Arms extended, like
superman flying, 'we thank you Lord, for giving us food, we thank you Lord, for giving us food, and for daily bread, when we need to be fed, we thank you Lord, for giving us food' set to the Superman movie theme music/cadence, ending with drumming on the table. There was one for the Addams family theme song, one set to Edelweiss, etc.

 

[nfp guy]

@fairsheet: Wonder what he'd think of the "Superman" grace, in my response to RedCloud?

 

[fairsheet]

@fairsheet: Wonder what he'd think of the "Superman" grace, in my response to RedCloud?

Hah! Reminds me of when I was around 10, I stayed the night at a friend's house of a Friday night. His mother knew I was Catholic, so she made corn pancakes for dinner. The whole family thought that was just the coolest thing. Little did they know....that my family and I, weren't really that rigid around that sort of thing, outside our household. But...I give Mrs. Wiest and "A" for effort, for sure.

 

[fairsheet]

@fairsheet: Well, I was asking if I was missing something, as you guys are a smart bunch, even if the board would generally come at this issue from a different perspective. I think it is a) reasonable for the grace-saying families to do so, no matter where they are (especially since it was specifically discussed prior to the group forming), but b) to do so in a way that is respectful of the different viewpoints on that, given especially that there are children involved. I think our friend could assemble her kids and say grace with them without involving the whole group, yet without whispering it or retreating to another room, for example.

IMHO, our public testimony to our God - Christ or whomever - must ALWAYS be positive. It's better to not testify at all, if it looks like it might come out negative. Every instance is different of course but...too often, I think people fall into the trap of "testifying" in a way that suggests exclusion.

 

[RedCloud]

@fairsheet: Wonder what he'd think of the "Superman" grace, in my response to RedCloud?

I would probably say, "I didn't expect a performance!" No, really, I would say nothing. Any guest invited into my house is going to be treated courteously. But if he/she is a con, they better watch their ass once they step off my porch!

 

[BrianDamage]

@fairsheet: Well, I was asking if I was missing something, as you guys are a smart bunch, even if the board would generally come at this issue from a different perspective. I think it is a) reasonable for the grace-saying families to do so, no matter where they are (especially since it was specifically discussed prior to the group forming), but b) to do so in a way that is respectful of the different viewpoints on that, given especially that there are children involved. I think our friend could assemble her kids and say grace with them without involving the whole group, yet without whispering it or retreating to another room, for example.

That sounds reasonable to me.

 

[NightSwimmer]

So... Where did we get this tradition of "saying grace" anyway? The behavior seems to fly in the face of the teaching of Matthew 6:6 regarding public prayer.

BTW: Is it necessary to say grace when eating leftovers that have already been previously prayed over?

 

[fairsheet]

So... Where did we get this tradition of "saying grace" anyway? The behavior seems to fly in the face of the teaching of Matthew 6:6 regarding public prayer.

BTW: Is it necessary to say grace when eating leftovers that have already been previously prayed over?

I can't speak for anyone else on this one. But..as I say, my dad was as devout as could be. He was the first to assume the role as our Church's "commentator" following Vatican II (Catholics of my vintage know what that's about). But, he was always way more about what's "real" and less about the bullshit. So..for instance, we never said "Grace" before any meal but dinner, or in a restaurant, or anything like that. My guess is that "Grace" served two functions. Part of it was a nod to our Catholicism. But, I'm guessing it also had to do with enforcing manners and decorum at the dinner table. It was sorta the "ready, set, go" before we dug in.

 

[BobbyT]

I can't speak for anyone else on this one. But..as I say, my dad was as devout as could be. He was the first to assume the role as our Church's "commentator" following Vatican II (Catholics of my vintage know what that's about). But, he was always way more about what's "real" and less about the bullshit. So..for instance, we never said "Grace" before any meal but dinner, or in a restaurant, or anything like that. My guess is that "Grace" served two functions. Part of it was a nod to our Catholicism. But, I'm guessing it also had to do with enforcing manners and decorum at the dinner table. It was sorta the "ready, set, go" before we dug in.

I agree, WRT the "ready, set, go" aspect of it. We were the same - no grace at lunch or b'fast or restaurants; always at dinner tho. But there were 6 kids and I think it was a way to reign in the chaos and to have each of us remember where we were in that moment before we started fighting over who got the drumsticks.

 

[RedCloud]

So... Where did we get this tradition of "saying grace" anyway? The behavior seems to fly in the face of the teaching of Matthew 6:6 regarding public prayer.

BTW: Is it necessary to say grace when eating leftovers that have already been previously prayed over?

NS, it is especially important to say grace when eating leftovers. The older the leftovers, the harder the praying!