Soooo

[degsme]

Degs, I am not following you. Recall, each of the praying families prays amongst themselves - - the other families do not participate.

But the example you gave was of your wife praying at one end of the table with the others at the other end. That is clearly a case of your wife - a Loco Parentis Acting in a manner that openly REQUIRES defiance of her in this case, but not others. IOW once she is annointed as an "authority figure" (just as public school teacher is) - you cannot actually remove that from her only in the role of saying grace.

Yes children can accept a hierarchy of authority figures (playing mom off against dad) BUT they cannot deal with an authority figure also not being an authority figure (the mistake of some parents trying to be "best buddies" with their kids) Human psychology just doesn't work that way.

So as long as the prayer is being held IN FRONT of the other children, your wife is in fact indoctrinating the others. Now the "Neutral to religion" folks are probably more accepting of this as they are more confident in their kids abilities to recognize the irrationality of faith. But for the catholics, since there is only dogma separating the two traditions, and dogma comes purely from authority - then your wife is on more threatening ground with them.

I would suspect that what likely has started happening is that one of the catholic kids has started adopting your wife's approach to Grace in contrast to their own family's catholic approach. Or complaining about strictures like no meat on Friday.

The reality is that your wife IS indoctrinating the others if she is organizing Grace in front of the others. That's just how human psychology works... and given that Kant so brilliantly pointed out that religion is inherently irrational, you are in the realm of conflicting irrationalities. and there is no way of resolving that except by separation.

Seems to me it is not at all unreasonable to ask that
EITHER the kids say grace by themselves on thier own (or choose not to)
OR
your wife takes your kids aside away from the table and says Grace and then rejoins the table
OR
simultaneously a Catholic parent leads the catholic kids in prayer as your wife leads your kids.

Frankly the whole need to indoctrinate your own kids rather than letting them make their own choice when their brains are sufficiently developed seems a bit authoritarian to me - but then again, I am tolerant but not accepting of intentional irrationality.

 

[nfp guy]

OK, not sure I totally accept that each parent acts in loco parentis with respect to the other kids in the group, as the other parents are present. One of the specific issues addressed prior to the group beginning was that each parent was responsible for disciplining their own kids, so even when one of the moms is teaching a topic, that teaching mom does not discipline. Second, are you saying that the non-praying kids are having to disobey either my bride or her friend by not participating in the grace before meals? Third, the other family says the same grace that we do. Fourth, taking the other family's mom at her word, there is no other issue than what I have described.

 

[degsme]

Well there is the questionalbe issue of the two "graces" being the same. But then again, religious dogma is religious dogma and hardly rational. In fact the similarlty of the two "graces" might in fact BE the issue. Namely that if the kids cannot distinguish between them, that they are starting to raise other issues of "indistinction" at home.

That said, I think its worth exploring whether there are other issues at play, and doing so delicately and 1:1.

But yes, despite each parent being responsible for the discipline of their own kids, it doesn't quite work that way. Each Parent is a "teacher" and thus has the authority of a "PARENT TEACHER"... So while your wife may discipline "Johnny" and the other parent discipline's "Jimmy"... BOTH parents are seen in positions of authority.

And I'm not saying that this "disobedience of authority" is a conscious thing or consciously recognized by the other parents. It may just be expressing itself through questions or arguements at home that the Catholic Parents don't want to have, such as

"well Their Grace is the same as ours. So why can't I eat meat on Fridays the way my friends get to?"

Frankly this is the problem of religiousity in the civic space (because teaching in a multi-religious setting is in fact, CIVIC). And this is the part that most religiously minded parents don't seem to get when it comes to CIVIC PUBLIC education and the role of religious practice in that setting.

 

[NightSwimmer]

Well there is the questionalbe issue of the two "graces" being the same.

If I'm not mistaken, nfp guy is also Catholic. I didn't think there was an issue with which form of grace was said, but with whether it should be said in the presence of the other children?

 

[fairsheet]

If I'm not mistaken, nfp guy is also Catholic. I didn't think there was an issue with which form of grace was said, but with whether it should be said in the presence of the other children?

Oh!...I see, said the blind man.....Thanks for explaining that, N-Swimmer.

Okay...now I have an opinion on this one. I think the "solution" in a group like this, is for the "grace" to rotate. It's good that kids might learn other people's approach to such things. "Grace" is just as much a cultural thing, as anything else. We wouldn't think to "shield" our kids from people who talk or dress differently, or eat different things. Why would we feel the need then, to "protect" them from being exposed to other people's traditions pre-meal?

On the other hand, people sharing a table should avoid dividing themselves into seperate and exclusive "grace units". And, one "grace" or other pre-meal tradition, should not be allowed to dominate the others.

 

[RedCloud]

Oh!...I see, said the blind man.....Thanks for explaining that, N-Swimmer.

Okay...now I have an opinion on this one. I think the "solution" in a group like this, is for the "grace" to rotate. It's good that kids might learn other people's approach to such things. "Grace" is just as much a cultural thing, as anything else. We wouldn't think to "shield" our kids from people who talk or dress differently, or eat different things. Why would we feel the need then, to "protect" them from being exposed to other people's traditions pre-meal?

On the other hand, people sharing a table should avoid dividing themselves into seperate and exclusive "grace units". And, one "grace" or other pre-meal tradition, should not be allowed to dominate the others.

The host/hostess, alpha male/female, should say, "If you like, lets bow our heads and say a SILENT grace.

Then throw a fork at a anyone who breaks the silence.

 

[happyatheist]

My gang goes to a homeschool group once a week, where they get together with, right now, three other families. One other family is Catholic, one is officially neutral on religion, and one family is also agnostic/neutral/recovering from her evangelical missionary parents. So, my guys, four Catholic kids counting the two year old, other family, three Catholic kids with their one year old, four from the neutral family, and one from the last family. My family and the neutral family host the group on alternating basis. The issue of saying grace before lunch has, amazingly to me, apparently become an issue.

there was much discussion about how faith would neither be checked at the door nor imposed on the others. Before lunch, my bride will gather our kids together and say our grace - - not whispered, not in another room, but we don't take over the room either. The religion-neutrals are good with this, but our Catholic friend is not. Sometimes, as I understand it, her kids will be at different ends of the table, and she will have them say grace, apparently with the other kids at the table as well (not that they participate). I can certainly understand that the neutrals could see this as an improper influence, especially since the Catholic kids outnumber the neutrals, and this sort of thing was discussed. What I am surprised about is that our Catholic friend does not see it. I think this is especially true since it involves respecting the parental authority of the other families, and second, it involves very young kids. Our friend may leave the group over this issue. I think it is plainly just being respectful of others. I realize this board will generally think even allowing the grace to be said is wrong ( and of course some here apparently think even teaching religion is inappropriate), but am I missing something?

I am also posting because in the post-mortem of the last group wherein this issue was discussed, the religion-neutrals, who are pro-Obama, did not seem to realize that "under God" is of very recent vintage in the pledge. I can understand our Catholic friend not knowing, but the others?

I don't think I have the gist of the issue here...

Is the problem with the other catholic family's grace is that it is not done as a group amongst themselves but with the children of that family spread from one end of the table to the other with other families' kids in between them - in other words, that mother is defacto imposing their grace on everyone by having to do it loudly and obviously instead of coralling her bunch and doing it amongst themselves?

If that is the case, I would agree that that is just bad manners - on several levels. Firstly, yes, it is a way of imposing your own religion on others without their consent and is disrespectful of others' beliefs and traditions. Secondly it is poor form religiously to broadcast your beliefs - can be properly misconstrued by others as gloating, flaunting or otherwise demeaning others.

I would liken it to a school nurse informing a parent that their child has lice. That is a thing that is done in private in order to keep from embarrassing the child, firstly, and to make sure the parent is calmly informed of the problem and also has the proper atmosphere to learn the solution. Your friend's public display of religiosity with her children all spread out in the crowd would be the same as the school nurse announcing over the school PA system that Johnny has lice, now go home and tell your mom so she can do something about it.

 

[degsme]

And frankly if I was a parent of the NEUTRAL kids, I'd object... because I don't want them indoctrinated into bowing and praying. But I'd be ok with a moment of silence prior to a meal in which everyone at the table is simply respectful of whatever the other folks are doing.

Note BTW, I suspect this would NOT be an acceptable alternative to the religious types since at that age, the kids aren't really into doing the "pray on your own". If they were, the sort of homeschooled religious indoctrination would not be necessary.

 

[happyatheist]

And frankly if I was a parent of the NEUTRAL kids, I'd object... because I don't want them indoctrinated into bowing and praying. But I'd be ok with a moment of silence prior to a meal in which everyone at the table is simply respectful of whatever the other folks are doing.

Isn't that the same sort of rationale that people who don't want their kids "indoctrinated into gayness" use???

People pray, people are gay, people swear, people smoke and people fart. Not allowing anyone to see it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen...

Simply witnessing that people pray (swear, smoke, fart or are gay) does not constitute indoctrination.

 

[happyatheist]

If I'm not mistaken, nfp guy is also Catholic. I didn't think there was an issue with which form of grace was said, but with whether it should be said in the presence of the other children?

I don't think that it was a matter of it being said in the presence of the other children (nfp's wife is still in the presence of the other children, just off to the side), so much as, because the (other) praying children are spread out amongst the non-praying children, the non-praying children are included in the prayer/prayer group simply by happenstance of being physically located in the middle of it. Stuck in a stampede, if you will. A stampede purposely created by the praying mother.

 

[degsme]

No because Gayness isn't indoctrinable. Religiousit is purely indoctrinated because it is about BELIEF rather than reasoning or being. For a very very very small segment of the population, faith comes into their lives at a later date on its own. But that's a tiny fraction of the population. The best evidence for this is what has happened to organized religion in Europe where a removal of religious indoctrination in schools has resulted in a catastrophic collapse of organized religious adherence http://features.pewforum.org/global-christianity/population-number.php with LESS THAN 50% saying that religion plays an important part in their lives in the vast majority of Europe. In France that number is as high as 73% despite it being nominally catholic.

Indoctrination is the key here then. Not so with homosexuality.

 

[NightSwimmer]

I don't think that it was a matter of it being said in the presence of the other children (nfp's wife is still in the presence of the other children, just off to the side), so much as, because the (other) praying children are spread out amongst the non-praying children, the non-praying children are included in the prayer/prayer group simply by happenstance of being physically located in the middle of it. Stuck in a stampede, if you will. A stampede purposely created by the praying mother.

Therein lies the dividing line, in my opinion, between private and public prayer. When a congregation of like-minded people is gathered, group prayer is appropriate. When a diverse group of people with different religious beliefs are gathered, then I am of the opinion that public prayer is inappropriate. I know of no Biblical requirement to perform a prayer prior to eating. How much of an inconvenience is it to simply refrain from praying in public? Is it a sin to not say grace?

 

[degsme]

There are dogmatic and religious tradition requirements for such grace. In part this comes from incorporating pagan traditions of celebrating meals and thanking the Animism gods of the pantheon of the harvest or the hunt. Remember, for a very very very long time (through about 1300) starvation was not far away since long distance food trade during winter was simply not feasible.

 

[nfp guy]

@fairsheet #45: IMO, the rotating would not work. It is not right to have the non-believer families have to "pray", even if for them it would moreso be a moment to reflect with gratitude or a moment of silence, nor is it right that the praying families, who are homeschooling specifically because they want to have a faith-based education, have to give up this part of what they are. When the rotating idea was pitched to the other Catholic family, the mom indicated she would have hers say a private grace anyway.

Not sure they are 100% "sharing a table" in the sense of a common meal, as each family brings their own lunch, but they are, as I understand it, basically sitting in the same area.

 

[nfp guy]

@NS #44: yes, of course. It was in the original post, and I thought my posting history made that clear.

 

[nfp guy]

@happy #47: no, you have it right - - it is the de facto, as you put it, imposition that is the issue.

 

[nfp guy]

@degs #48: Since the parents are, in your estimation and characterization, authority figures here, are not the non-praying parents doing as much non-religious indoctrination? It works both ways. As fairsheet alludes to, it is good for all involved to see that others may do things differently. More importantly, the moms are friends and are trying to work it out so that the group works for everyone. These issues were discussed at length among the first three families, not as extensively with the second Catholic family, who was invited in later - - not much later, like two weeks in IIRC.

there are lots of things that kids aren't necessarily into doing on their own without training, like, oh, I don't know, sharing, manners, good hygiene, etc.

 

[nfp guy]

@happy #50: Yes, that is it. Although it is not quite a stampede, it is insensitive to the concerns of the other non-praying families.

 

[fairsheet]

@fairsheet #45: IMO, the rotating would not work. It is not right to have the non-believer families have to "pray", even if for them it would moreso be a moment to reflect with gratitude or a moment of silence, nor is it right that the praying families, who are homeschooling specifically because they want to have a faith-based education, have to give up this part of what they are. When the rotating idea was pitched to the other Catholic family, the mom indicated she would have hers say a private grace anyway.

Not sure they are 100% "sharing a table" in the sense of a common meal, as each family brings their own lunch, but they are, as I understand it, basically sitting in the same area.

I will argue (as is my wont)...that rotating can work. It's about the pre-meal tradition, not necessarily a "prayer". How does a non-believing family commence the meal?....with, "dig in", or "get it while it's hot""...what? Whatever's THEIR tradition, can be encouraged on THEIR rotation day. Per my babble above, I don't believe that it's critical for "believers" to recite their own personal prayer, every single day. And in fact, I think it's way more important for children to learn to appreciate other people's traditions and not be taught that theirs is somehow "superior" to any other.

 

[degsme]

No NFP... the absence of indoctrination is not itself indoctrination. It leaves the field open for later individual evaluation. Your point about seeing others "do things differently" is frankly contrary to much if not most of religious dogma, particularly HRC dogma with its "the only true church"... etc.

That the Moms are friends helps but remember that religious differences are among the top 3 causes of divorce. So friendship will only get you so far.

As for the notion that there are a lot of things kids won't do with training, I think you over-emphasize it. Sharing and manners are learned more by modeling than by training. Good hygene is a purely physical issue and even there, training only goes so far (hence the significant changes that thake place Freshman Year at Univ).

Religion is about indoctrinating a way of thinking. And it is an indoctrination in the very core fundamentals of how to live in the world. Some believe parents have an authoritarian right to impose this on a child - remember that in Pakistan and elsewhere, if you are born into an islamic family, choosing a different faith LITERALLY exposes you to a death sentence - others do not.