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Student Loan Debt

Arkady

President
Barring a last-minute fix by Congress, student loan rates are set to double today. This is an issue near to my heart, since I spent the first five years of my career in a constant panic about my own student debt. I owed $120,000 when I graduated, and thanks to the high interest rates at the time, that cost me almost $200,000 by the time I'd paid it down. When I first graduated, my minimum monthly payment was $1500, which is like having a mortgage, without any place to live. I graduated in 1998, the first year that bankruptcy laws prevented a person from discharging student loan debt, so there was no way out. It wasn't like credit card-, or car-, or mortgage debt -- no matter what, that bill was going to keep showing up until I'd paid off every penny, and anything I might do to defer the debt would just mean more interest.

In my own case, I had the advantage of having gone to elite universities and having an extremely practical graduate degree, so after sweating bullets for a few years, I wound up with a good job and a solid income that made paying the debt off early pretty easy. But lots of young people don't have that advantage. They get out of college with degrees the market doesn't take seriously -- only good enough to displace some less educated unskilled worker from a job at Starbucks, making a fraction of what would be needed to keep up with the interest on their debt, much less to make progress against the principle.

Probably the two worst mistakes these kids make are:

(1) getting a degree from a for-profit college that hiring managers discount almost entirely -- those colleges are widely seen as a scheme for diverting tax dollars into the pockets of big companies, by way of government student loans, while doing little to enhance a person's employ-ability.

(2) getting an impractical college degree with an elite price-tag from a non-competitive college. If you're thinking about shelling out $50,000 per year on college, make sure you're either going to a top-50 college, or that you're going to be getting a degree the market is demanding (like chemical engineering), or, preferably, both. It's amazing the number of colleges that charge as much as the top universities in the country, for a degree that grad schools and employers don't see as superior to the cheapest of state colleges. Take Sarah Lawrence College. It seldom ranks in the top 100 colleges in the country. Yet its total cost is $60,116, more than any Ivy League school, and vastly more than academically comparable state schools.

That financial "self defense" advice is useful, but this is a systematic problem and we need to address it. No other country strands its young people with so much debt to get a decent education. We can change things. At a bare minimum, we can reform bankruptcy laws to make student loan debt easier, not harder, to get out of, than other debt. It's truly bizarre that someone who runs up tens of thousands of dollars of debt in a Vegas casino can get out of it easier than someone who runs up the same money in a university, trying to better himself.

The conservatives worry about moral hazard. They worry that if people can get out of student loan debt too easily, they'll take on more debt than they can afford, and then walk away on a whim. Particularly of concern is that people will run up debt qualifying themselves for a lucrative career, and then go bankrupt to get out from under it right before starting that high-paying occupation -- for example, a doctor discharging a couple hundred thousand dollars of medical school debt right before starting his six-figure practice. But that would be easy to guard against without the cruelty of our current system. Simply create a rule that raises the tax rate on the top couple brackets for a certain number of years for anyone declaring bankruptcy. A doctor embarking on a lucrative career isn't going to go bankrupt to get out from under student loan debt if, in doing so, he's buying himself ten or twenty years of much higher taxes. That simple change would make sure that bankruptcy is only used by those who truly are desperate. And it would solve a problem well beyond the student loan arena (for example, currently professional athletes will sometimes go bankrupt to get out from under debt, even though they have a huge income stream that could cover that debt).

This change would also address another, more serious, moral hazard. Right now, with so many student loans being guaranteed by the government, and all student loan debt being impossible to get out of through bankruptcy, lenders are essentially encouraged to make irresponsible loans: lending unlimited money to people to get the most worthless degrees from the most overpriced schools, with no academic conditions attached, because they know that they'll get re-paid, sooner or later -- either by the government, or by the student essentially slaving away in indentured servitude for decades at McJobs, with the majority of his income supporting the lifestyles of investment bankers who helped dupe him into those loans. If it were easier to get out of debt through bankruptcy, lenders would have an incentive to scrutinize who is getting their loans and for what, in the student loan context. If they knew that students at certain schools and with certain majors were often going into bankruptcy, they'd be reluctant to lend in those situations -- or would put academic conditions on their loans (e.g., carry a certain course-load and get a certain GPA your freshman year, or you won't be getting sophomore year loans).
 
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Barring a last-minute fix by Congress, student loan rates are set to double today. This is an issue near to my heart, since I spent the first five years of my career in a constant panic about my own student debt. I owed $120,000 when I graduated, and thanks to the high interest rates at the time, that cost me almost $200,000 by the time I'd paid it down. When I first graduated, my minimum monthly payment was $1500, which is like having a mortgage, without any place to live. I graduated in 1998, the first year that bankruptcy laws prevented a person from discharging student loan debt, so there was no way out. It wasn't like credit card-, or car-, or mortgage debt -- no matter what, that bill was going to keep showing up until I'd paid off every penny, and anything I might do to defer the debt would just mean more interest.

In my own case, I had the advantage of having gone to elite universities and having an extremely practical graduate degree, so after sweating bullets for a few years, I wound up with a good job and a solid income that made paying the debt off early pretty easy. But lots of young people don't have that advantage. They get out of college with degrees the market doesn't take seriously -- only good enough to displace some less educated unskilled worker from a job at Starbucks, making a fraction of what would be needed to keep up with the interest on their debt, much less to make progress against the principle.

Probably the two worst mistakes these kids make are:

(1) getting a degree from a for-profit college that hiring managers discount almost entirely -- those colleges are widely seen as a scheme for diverting tax dollars into the pockets of big companies, by way of government student loans, while doing little to enhance a person's employ-ability.

(2) getting an impractical college degree with an elite price-tag from a non-competitive college. If you're thinking about shelling out $50,000 per year on college, make sure you're either going to a top-50 college, or that you're going to be getting a degree the market is demanding (like chemical engineering), or, preferably, both. It's amazing the number of colleges that charge as much as the top universities in the country, for a degree that grad schools and employers don't see as superior to the cheapest of state colleges. Take Sarah Lawrence College. It seldom ranks in the top 100 colleges in the country. Yet its total cost is $60,116, more than any Ivy League school, and vastly more than academically comparable state schools.

That financial "self defense" advice is useful, but this is a systematic problem and we need to address it. No other country strands its young people with so much debt to get a decent education. We can change things. At a bare minimum, we can reform bankruptcy laws to make student loan debt easier, not harder, to get out of, than other debt. It's truly bizarre that someone who runs up tens of thousands of dollars of debt in a Vegas casino can get out of it easier than someone who runs up the same money in a university, trying to better himself.

The conservatives worry about moral hazard. They worry that if people can get out of student loan debt too easily, they'll take on more debt than they can afford, and then walk away on a whim. Particularly of concern is that people will run up debt qualifying themselves for a lucrative career, and then go bankrupt to get out from under it right before starting that high-paying occupation -- for example, a doctor discharging a couple hundred thousand dollars of medical school debt right before starting his six-figure practice. But that would be easy to guard against without the cruelty of our current system. Simply create a rule that raises the tax rate on the top couple brackets for a certain number of years for anyone declaring bankruptcy. A doctor embarking on a lucrative career isn't going to go bankrupt to get out from under student loan debt if, in doing so, he's buying himself ten or twenty years of much higher taxes. That simple change would make sure that bankruptcy is only used by those who truly are desperate. And it would solve a problem well beyond the student loan arena (for example, currently professional athletes will sometimes go bankrupt to get out from under debt, even though they have a huge income stream that could cover that debt).

This change would also address another, more serious, moral hazard. Right now, with so many student loans being guaranteed by the government, and all student loan debt being impossible to get out of through bankruptcy, lenders are essentially encouraged to make irresponsible loans: lending unlimited money to people to get the most worthless degrees from the most overpriced schools, with no academic conditions attached, because they know that they'll get re-paid, sooner or later -- either by the government, or by the student essentially slaving away in indentured servitude for decades at McJobs, with the majority of his income supporting the lifestyles of investment bankers who helped dupe him into those loans. If it were easier to get out of debt through bankruptcy, lenders would have an incentive to scrutinize who is getting their loans and for what, in the student loan context. If they knew that students at certain schools and with certain majors were often going into bankruptcy, they'd be reluctant to lend in those situations -- or would put academic conditions on their loans (e.g., carry a certain course-load and get a certain GPA your freshman year, or you won't be getting sophomore year loans).

OK, I'll accept that this slid to page two without comments because I'm long-winded. But, come on, do we really need a dozen threads going simultaneously about a shooting incident in Florida, while a national-scale story like our student-loan debt crisis goes unremarked?!

There's now more student loan debt than credit card debt in this country, and the overhang of all those interest payments is seriously hurting economic growth. This is throwing a substantial portion of a generation into something like indentured servitude, where they work for a couple decades primarily for the benefit of someone who holds their non-dischargable debt, deferring home ownership and having a family. And it may well kill the American Dream. If you see the Dream as the average person being able to set his children up to have an even better life than he did, crushing college cost is making that less likely. For the first time, it appears likely that fewer people will get college degrees than in the prior generation, and those who do get degrees will often be materially less well off than their parents due to the debt they took on to do so.
 
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OK, I'll accept that this slid to page two without comments because I'm long-winded. But, come on, do we really need a dozen threads going simultaneously about a shooting incident in Florida, while a national-scale story like our student-loan debt crisis goes unremarked?!

There's now more student loan debt than credit card debt in this country, and the overhang of all those interest payments is seriously hurting economic growth. This is throwing a substantial portion of a generation into something like indentured servitude, where they work for a couple decades primarily for the benefit of someone who holds their non-dischargable debt, deferring home ownership and having a family. And it may well kill the American Dream. If you see the Dream as the average person being able to set his children up to have an even better life than he did, crushing college costs is making that less likely. For the first time, it appears likely that fewer people will get college degrees than in the prior generation, and those who do get degrees will often be materially less well off than their parents due to the debt they took on to do so.

Honestly, Ark, I don't see it as that big an issue. I did my undergrad '83-'87 at Washington. Granted, I was a hoops guy and did not need to load up on loans then - but my 3 years of grad work (at Stanford, no less) was costly indeed. I sucked it up and paid it off. Each individual owns his choices - how much to borrow, where to get your tuition 'bang for the buck', the viability of his chosen coursework and subsequent demand/marketability are on him. I'm not inclined to continually look to the state to solve all issues, and am uncomfortable with the extent of its involvement to date. It's on individual students (and their parents) to make informed choices.

Incidentally, my son begins his university journey in September. He hates chemistry, so (unlike his dad) he will choose Mechanical Engineering. We'll see what sticks. :)
 
OK, I'll accept that this slid to page two without comments because I'm long-winded. But, come on, do we really need a dozen threads going simultaneously about a shooting incident in Florida, while a national-scale story like our student-loan debt crisis goes unremarked?!

There's now more student loan debt than credit card debt in this country, and the overhang of all those interest payments is seriously hurting economic growth. This is throwing a substantial portion of a generation into something like indentured servitude, where they work for a couple decades primarily for the benefit of someone who holds their non-dischargable debt, deferring home ownership and having a family. And it may well kill the American Dream. If you see the Dream as the average person being able to set his children up to have an even better life than he did, crushing college costs is making that less likely. For the first time, it appears likely that fewer people will get college degrees than in the prior generation, and those who do get degrees will often be materially less well off than their parents due to the debt they took on to do so.

I understand your position. I agree with you on most. But then I also am a bit more cynical.

I can feel for anyone who begins life feeling as if they are an indentured servent but I can't help but believe that the majority, not all mind you but a substancial number of those affected put themselves in this position because they are living either in a fantasy land or are in denial.

The fact is our society has a finite number of each occupation that can be useful. Everyone simply cannot be a doctor, lawyer or Indian cheif, sorry. Society NEEDS everything, and labors are included. Now it would be nice if everyone could go to school until such a time as they receive a doctorate degree in whatever field they desire and it cost them nothing personally, but then what?

I see many kids continuing through college for no other reason than to avoid entering the "real world" and being expected to actually work, provide for themselve and contribute to society as a whole. I see others who simply don't know what they really want to be so they just go on through college trying to "figur themselves out". Still others know that they probably aren't going to ever actually acheive an advanced degree but they also know they aren't interested in actually WORKING, so they meander on....

Truth is we all will at some point feel like we are indentured servants, but most of us understand the others aren't really interested in absorbing whatever dept we CHOSE to run up on ourselves.
 
More Regs/Laws = More Judges/Lawyers = More Police/Prison Guards.

How govt trickles down to the lower classes
 
When I originally went to University, the state covered 80%+ of the cost and I covered 20%-. Nowadays, it's virtually the opposite. We used to think of higher education as an obvious societal benefit. Now, we think of it as nothing but an individual benefit.

That we may think the latter, doesn't make it true. Higher education still IS an obvious societal benefit. Therefore - if we're going to ask students to cover 80% of their costs as they're studying just for their benefit but ours, the LEAST we can do is extend them 0% interest loans. And...what we actually SHOULD do, is allow these graduates to take a 5% income tax credit, per year, until their loan is paid off.

The problem with my schemes though, is that we would have to be a lot more selective and provide more oversight for these sorts of loans. For instance...as far as I'm concerned, NO guvmint-backed dough should go to any "for profit" education bidnesses. And...God love the gal who dreams of earning her BA in "15-Century Albanian Art Painted on Wood, not Canvas", from a prestigious private school. But, I think it would be a little unrealistic to expect that she could ever pay off a $200K student loan, so she probably shouldn't be extended one.
 
I graduated in 1998, the first year that bankruptcy laws prevented a person from discharging student loan debt, so there was no way out.

So your original plan was to go deep into debt on your education, then discharge it all on a BK? Nice. You can see whay that law was passed, to protect taxpayers from people like you...
 
Honestly, Ark, I don't see it as that big an issue. I did my undergrad '83-'87 at Washington. Granted, I was a hoops guy and did not need to load up on loans then - but my 3 years of grad work (at Stanford, no less) was costly indeed. I sucked it up and paid it off. Each individual owns his choices - how much to borrow, where to get your tuition 'bang for the buck', the viability of his chosen coursework and subsequent demand/marketability are on him. I'm not inclined to continually look to the state to solve all issues, and am uncomfortable with the extent of its involvement to date. It's on individual students (and their parents) to make informed choices.

Incidentally, my son begins his university journey in September. He hates chemistry, so (unlike his dad) he will choose Mechanical Engineering. We'll see what sticks. :)

When any individual makes a bad choice, we can attribute it to the individual and tell him to suck it up and own his choice. But when MILLIONS are making a similar bad choice, it starts to look like a systematic problem that could use a broader solution. In the past, when we intervened in this issue, the results were good. In the decades after WWII, we funded our state schools heavily to make them affordable, and had the GI Bill, and the huge increase in college education in this country (without substantial personal debt) did great things for our economic potential and general prosperity. Earlier, with the expansion of public education at the pre-college level, we had similarly great results. Why not step up and do something similar -- making undergraduate education more available and affordable today. In terms of the demands of the economy, an undergraduate degree looks an awful lot like a high school diploma looked a hundred years ago, so why not make it available on similar terms, at public cost?
 
So your original plan was to go deep into debt on your education, then discharge it all on a BK? Nice. You can see whay that law was passed, to protect taxpayers from people like you...

No. But it's interesting you'd misread what I wrote that badly. In doing so, you've made a great point, for purposes of this thread. Marvin is the reason we need to work to improve education in this country. If we don't, we can expect that kind of functional illiteracy to continue to be widespread, with a resulting denigration of our civic discourse.
 
No. But it's interesting you'd misread what I wrote that badly. In doing so, you've made a great point, for purposes of this thread. Marvin is the reason we need to work to improve education in this country. If we don't, we can expect that kind of functional illiteracy to continue to be widespread, with a resulting denigration of our civic discourse.

Nice try. I think it was quite clear you intended to run up a huge education debt, then walk away from it and stick the taxpayers with the bill. Just like the good leftist you are...
 
When any individual makes a bad choice, we can attribute it to the individual and tell him to suck it up and own his choice. But when MILLIONS are making a similar bad choice, it starts to look like a systematic problem that could use a broader solution. In the past, when we intervened in this issue, the results were good. In the decades after WWII, we funded our state schools heavily to make them affordable, and had the GI Bill, and the huge increase in college education in this country (without substantial personal debt) did great things for our economic potential and general prosperity. Earlier, with the expansion of public education at the pre-college level, we had similarly great results. Why not step up and do something similar -- making undergraduate education more available and affordable today. In terms of the demands of the economy, an undergraduate degree looks an awful lot like a high school diploma looked a hundred years ago, so why not make it available on similar terms, at public cost?

As with just about every other issue - undergraduate education IS available. The same bloody arguments were made in an effort to collectivize "ensure access" to healthcare as well. Availability for a thing does not equal subsidy and pooling of cost for that thing. The left is forever hell bent on conflating the two. There are colleges and universities on just about every street corner. Availability is not an issue. There is no undergraduate institution shortages. You are speaking here specifically and exclusively to PAYMENT for individual citizens' educations beyond high school. Let's be honest what we are speaking of here rather than leveraging vague euphemisms that are more politically palatable.

We need more individual stakeholders in our respective futures - not less. We need to instill a greater sense of personal accountability and ownership - not less. There needs to be more thoughtful, serious exploration of the consequences of choosing fields of study - not more casual ones. This issue is being considered in a way that is precisely 180 degrees from what should be.
 
I understand your position. I agree with you on most. But then I also am a bit more cynical.

I can feel for anyone who begins life feeling as if they are an indentured servent but I can't help but believe that the majority, not all mind you but a substancial number of those affected put themselves in this position because they are living either in a fantasy land or are in denial.

The fact is our society has a finite number of each occupation that can be useful. Everyone simply cannot be a doctor, lawyer or Indian cheif, sorry. Society NEEDS everything, and labors are included. Now it would be nice if everyone could go to school until such a time as they receive a doctorate degree in whatever field they desire and it cost them nothing personally, but then what?

I see many kids continuing through college for no other reason than to avoid entering the "real world" and being expected to actually work, provide for themselve and contribute to society as a whole. I see others who simply don't know what they really want to be so they just go on through college trying to "figur themselves out". Still others know that they probably aren't going to ever actually acheive an advanced degree but they also know they aren't interested in actually WORKING, so they meander on....

Truth is we all will at some point feel like we are indentured servants, but most of us understand the others aren't really interested in absorbing whatever dept we CHOSE to run up on ourselves.

I think that if bankruptcy were a more realistic option for those taking on student loan debt (in exchange for the kind of tax hike I mentioned), the lenders would be a lot more careful about who they loaned money to. They'd find ways to weed out those who seemed likely to come out of school without the kind of employability that makes that debt reasonable.
 
And to play the devil's advocate to my own screed above, the average student loan debt in 2012, upon their leaving college, was $26,500. That works out to $662 per year, 0r $55 per month, over a 40 year working life. If one's college education isn't worth at LEAST an extra $55 per month, that student probably made some really poor choices.

Of course my calculation does NOT account for compounded interest, but neither does it account for the fact that 40 years from now, that $55 will probably we worth well south of $10.

These numbers are certainly doable, even as they may encourage students to make sure their education is worthwhile!
 
Nice try. I think it was quite clear you intended to run up a huge education debt, then walk away from it and stick the taxpayers with the bill. Just like the good leftist you are...

Exactly! Your reading comprehension skills are so poor that you can read something like what I wrote and come to such an unsupported understanding. The widespread existence of people who haven't learned to read well is a major reason we should be striving to improve our educational system.
 
I think that if bankruptcy were a more realistic option for those taking on student loan debt (in exchange for the kind of tax hike I mentioned), the lenders would be a lot more careful about who they loaned money to. They'd find ways to weed out those who seemed likely to come out of school without the kind of employability that makes that debt reasonable.

Sighhh...State action is even required in order to entice private industry to look after its own best interests. Yumpin' yiminy! Is there nothing that doesn't require central planning anymore?
 
As with just about every other issue - undergraduate education IS available. The same bloody arguments were made in an effort to collectivize "ensure access" to healthcare as well. Availability for a thing does not equal subsidy and pooling of cost for that thing. The left is forever hell bent on conflating the two. There are colleges and universities on just about every street corner. Availability is not an issue. There is no undergraduate institution shortages. You are speaking here specifically and exclusively to PAYMENT for individual citizens' educations beyond high school. Let's be honest what we are speaking of here rather than leveraging vague euphemisms that are more politically palatable.

We need more individual stakeholders in our respective futures - not less. We need to instill a greater sense of personal accountability and ownership - not less. There needs to be more thoughtful, serious exploration of the consequences of choosing fields of study - not more casual ones. This issue is being considered in a way that is precisely 180 degrees from what should be.

If you think that continuing to put the burden on 18-year-old kids to have a seasoned and thoughtful approach to financing their future is going to yield better results in the future than it has to this point, I'm curious why. I think if we stick to this failed system, the results will continue to be poor. I think we'd be better off reforming the system in a way that doesn't require an unrealistic level of enlightenment from young people. The idea I proposed, of making student loan bankruptcies an option (and an easier option than general consumer debt), in exchange for tax rate increases, would help, by putting lenders in a position where they have a serious incentive to act as gatekeepers, with regard to that debt. The lenders are better positioned to consider the statistical default rates and thus to guide resources towards fields and institutions where returns can be expected to be better.
 
Sighhh...State action is even required in order to entice private industry to look after its own best interests. Yumpin' yiminy! Is there nothing that doesn't require central planning anymore?

The private sector will look after its own best interests either way. The point is to make a change that better aligns the interests of those private sector lenders with the interests of the society, so that when they look after their best interests, they're helping out the society, too.
 
If you think that continuing to put the burden on 18-year-old kids to have a seasoned and thoughtful approach to financing their future is going to yield better results in the future than it has to this point, I'm curious why. I think if we stick to this failed system, the results will continue to be poor. I think we'd be better off reforming the system in a way that doesn't require an unrealistic level of enlightenment from young people. The idea I proposed, of making student loan bankruptcies an option (and an easier option than general consumer debt), in exchange for tax rate increases, would help, by putting lenders in a position where they have a serious incentive to act as gatekeepers, with regard to that debt. The lenders are better positioned to consider the statistical default rates and thus to guide resources towards fields and institutions where returns can be expected to be better.

It worked for me. It worked for five of my six siblings. It's working for my nephew. It's about to work for my son. If a kid is bright enough that you believe we should collectivize investment risk into his education and career planning, then he should be capable of setting a reasonable course together with his parents. If he is not, then Jiffy Lube has his name written all over it. Advanced education is serious business...or it should be. That it carries with it some serious burden is not troublesome to me. All things are not a birthright. Some things should be valued highly - and should be costly in order that they are properly weighted and considered.

This continued societal mapping to the lowest common denominator needs to stop.
 
If you think that continuing to put the burden on 18-year-old kids to have a seasoned and thoughtful approach to financing their future is going to yield better results in the future than it has to this point, I'm curious why. I think if we stick to this failed system, the results will continue to be poor. I think we'd be better off reforming the system in a way that doesn't require an unrealistic level of enlightenment from young people. The idea I proposed, of making student loan bankruptcies an option (and an easier option than general consumer debt), in exchange for tax rate increases, would help, by putting lenders in a position where they have a serious incentive to act as gatekeepers, with regard to that debt. The lenders are better positioned to consider the statistical default rates and thus to guide resources towards fields and institutions where returns can be expected to be better.
If you think that continuing to put the burden on 18-year-old kids to have a seasoned and thoughtful approach to financing their future is going to yield better results in the future than it has to this point, I'm curious why. I think if we stick to this failed system, the results will continue to be poor. I think we'd be better off reforming the system in a way that doesn't require an unrealistic level of enlightenment from young people. The idea I proposed, of making student loan bankruptcies an option (and an easier option than general consumer debt), in exchange for tax rate increases, would help, by putting lenders in a position where they have a serious incentive to act as gatekeepers, with regard to that debt. The lenders are better positioned to consider the statistical default rates and thus to guide resources towards fields and institutions where returns can be expected to be better.


"The idea I proposed, of making student loan bankruptcies an option (and an easier option than general consumer debt), in exchange for tax rate increases, would help, by putting lenders in a position where they have a serious incentive to act as gatekeepers, with regard to that debt. The lenders are better positioned to consider the statistical default rates ..."

But something such as this is not realistic. Not when you are speaking of the government being involved it isn't.

For example, what are we to believe will happen when these finiancial institutions actually TRIED to make these loans based on " the statistical default rates and it resulted in "too many" of one or two races getting loans and "not enough" of another one or two races getting them?

THEN what? More government intervention, to "help out"?
 
The private sector will look after its own best interests either way. The point is to make a change that better aligns the interests of those private sector lenders with the interests of the society, so that when they look after their best interests, they're helping out the society, too.

That's the proper province of neither the state nor private industry. No disrespect intended, but you don't much strike me as a capitalist, Ark. Central planning of all things isn't going to achieve your desired aim. And mitigating the consequences of educational decisions and associated costs will not yield vested, stakeholders who achieve.
 
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