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Terrorism Methods

Arkady

President
We still have no idea whether the Vegas attack was terrorism or not. But it certainly reveals a vulnerability to terrorism. Shortly after 9/11, I had a morbid discussion with some friends about ways that even a single terrorist could kill dozens or even thousands of people with almost no expertise. It was a chilling conversation because even with that group, none of whom had military training or other special knowledge, we kept coming up with lone-wolf, high-death-toll plans that would be almost impossible to prevent.

One of the easiest plans looked very similar to what just happened in Vegas. The idea was to bring a bunch of high-rate-of-fire rifles to a high-rise building with a clear view of Times Square on New Year's Eve, and just randomly fire into the crowd. Even with no marksmanship skill, you could kill dozens before the police could hope to take you out. And the trampling would kill or maim dozens more. And it's almost impossible to do anything about it. Sure, you could identify likely venues where this could happen and force high-rise hotels nearby to screen guests for weapons. But, while I would have thought of Times Square, I may not have thought of a Vegas event; many locations would remain vulnerable. It wouldn't even need to be a special event. This is just rush hour:

rush-hour-times-square-22150715.jpg


That's not even the worst of the scenarios we came up with. Here's one that would let a lone nut kill thousands of people on live TV at relatively low cost and a good chance of him making it out of there alive. First, buy a surplus mortar, in the 60 mm range, along with a couple dozen anti-personnel rounds. These are dirt cheap and widely available all over the world, so the only trick would be smuggling them into the US. It may even be possible to buy them here.

Now, just set it up in a location half a mile from a stadium, and fire into the venue. With a little practice beforehand, you could work out the ranging and apply it exactly using GPS to hit within a few few dozen feet of where you were aiming. In the field, soldiers don't always have good info on their exact coordinates and those of their target and the relative altitude of each, etc., but if you planned it out in advance, you could all of those precisely, allowing even the first shot to be pretty accurate. After that, live coverage could allow you to fine tune your aim.... or you could use a web cam perched nearby with a cell phone to see just where your shots were landing so you could walk them in. Fire for a minute, then drive away before anyone knows what happened.

To picture that, here's Michigan stadium. It holds over 115,000 fans, packed tightly:

300px-Michigan_Stadium_2011.jpg


Here's what a 60 mm mortar looks like:

300px-M224_mortar_firing.jpg

The whole thing weighs just 40 pounds, and each round weighs around 3 pounds, so a sturdy person could carry the weapon and two dozen rounds, without too much effort, and for a two-person team it would be easy.

That will fire between 76, and 3,816 yards effectively. If you set up 1000 yards away, well within range, to give yourself an easy shot, you could be way the hell out here, far beyond the radius of any enhanced security:

upload_2017-10-2_14-12-19.png

A 60-mm HE M49A4 will cover about a 33-foot blast radius lethally (other 60 mm rounds go from about half that to about twice that, so I'm taking the middle). Here's what that radius looks like superimposed on the stadium:

upload_2017-10-2_14-32-12.png
Roughly 1200 people would be inside that circle and would be dead, from a single hit -- with severe injuries all around it. That's 1200 dead with a single shot. Land just three shots in the stadium before it empties, and you've carried out the deadliest terrorist attack in history.... on live TV. The weapon is designed to fire 30 shots in one minute, so even throwing away the first few for ranging, it would be hard not to kill far more people than died on 9/11.

And that's with a fairly small and cheap mortar -- a plan you could pull off for $10,000 or so solo or with a two-man team. With a four-man team and about twice the funds, you could go with a 120 mm mortar, mounted to a pickup truck. The 120 mm HE shells have a lethality radius of 225 feet, so dropping one at midfield would kill about 40,000 people at a shot, and any shot landing anywhere in that stadium would kill at least 10,000. And after firing 15 shots in a minute, you could just drive away.

How do you defend against that? A 60 mm mortar has a range of up to 2.1 miles, and a 120 mm mortar has a range of up to 4.5 miles. You simply cannot police a range that far around every event. And there are hundreds of thousands of these mortars available all around the world for cheap. Even if you couldn't get your hands on one, something home-made would be easy. There are home-made devices that chuck pumpkins as far as 4700 feet -- chucking a bunch of home-made pipe bombs with one of those would be child's play.
 
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3,000 people were massacred on 9/11 by terrorists.

not a single bullet was fired.
True. The scenario I lay out here, though, could be done much more cheaply, with far fewer people, and a much higher death toll. In an open society like ours, there are vulnerabilities everywhere, and there's little you can do about most of them.
 
True. The scenario I lay out here, though, could be done much more cheaply, with far fewer people, and a much higher death toll. In an open society like ours, there are vulnerabilities everywhere, and there's little you can do about most of them.

In that case, stop trying to deprive me and my fellow Americans of our civil rights.
 
How do you defend against that? .

As you pointed out, you can't.

Life isn't a college campus safe space. The moment you get in a car, there's a chance you could die in a car accident, a drunk driver, or someone who wants to commit suicide and wants to take someone with them.

I realize the 1984 big government type like to attempt to control every single molecule on every nation on earth, but, it's simply impossible.

We can protect people, to a point. Life is filled with tragedies. Cancer, stillborn illness, car accidents, death from a small meteor...

Meanwhile, as you stated, there's no way to police these types of weapons.

So, why are you asking the question? Is this some sort of hope for a one-world, historically-disastrous, culture-crushing, xenophobic government?
 
As you pointed out, you can't.

Life isn't a college campus safe space. The moment you get in a car, there's a chance you could die in a car accident, a drunk driver, or someone who wants to commit suicide and wants to take someone with them.

I realize the 1984 big government type like to attempt to control every single molecule on every nation on earth, but, it's simply impossible.

We can protect people, to a point. Life is filled with tragedies. Cancer, stillborn illness, car accidents, death from a small meteor...

Meanwhile, as you stated, there's no way to police these types of weapons.

So, why are you asking the question? Is this some sort of hope for a one-world, historically-disastrous, culture-crushing, xenophobic government?

He's indulging his anti-civil rights fantasies. It's 1850 again in the Democrat party, hadn't you noticed?
 
He's indulging his anti-civil rights fantasies. It's 1850 again in the Democrat party, hadn't you noticed?

I mean, I've seen my share of pot-smokers and Neanderthal celebrities who sway back and forth, eyes closed, and calmly ask:

"Hey mannnn.. why can't we all, just like... get along. Peace mann. Love. You know..."

That's what Ark sounds like here.

While he might want to control everything, the truth about life is, you can't.
 
We still have no idea whether the Vegas attack was terrorism or not. But it certainly reveals a vulnerability to terrorism. Shortly after 9/11, I had a morbid discussion with some friends about ways that even a single terrorist could kill dozens or even thousands of people with almost no expertise. It was a chilling conversation because even with that group, none of whom had military training or other special knowledge, we kept coming up with lone-wolf, high-death-toll plans that would be almost impossible to prevent.

One of the easiest plans looked very similar to what just happened in Vegas. The idea was to bring a bunch of high-rate-of-fire rifles to a high-rise building with a clear view of Times Square on New Year's Eve, and just randomly fire into the crowd. Even with no marksmanship skill, you could kill dozens before the police could hope to take you out. And the trampling would kill or maim dozens more. And it's almost impossible to do anything about it. Sure, you could identify likely venues where this could happen and force high-rise hotels nearby to screen guests for weapons. But, while I would have thought of Times Square, I may not have thought of a Vegas event; many locations would remain vulnerable. It wouldn't even need to be a special event. This is just rush hour:

rush-hour-times-square-22150715.jpg


That's not even the worst of the scenarios we came up with. Here's one that would let a lone nut kill thousands of people on live TV at relatively low cost and a good chance of him making it out of there alive. First, buy a soviet surplus mortar, in the 60 mm range, along with a couple dozen anti-personnel rounds. These are dirt cheap and widely available all over the world, so the only trick would be smuggling them into the US. It may even be possible to buy them here.

Now, just set it up in a location half a mile from a stadium, and fire into the venue. With a little practice beforehand, you could work out the ranging and apply it exactly using GPS to hit within a few few dozen feet of where you were aiming. In the field, soldiers don't always have good info on their exact coordinates and those of their target and the relative altitude of each, etc., but if you planned it out in advance, you could all of those precisely, allowing even the first shot to be pretty accurate. After that, live coverage could allow you to fine tune your aim.... or you could use a web cam perched nearby with a cell phone to see just where your shots were landing so you could walk them in. Fire for a minute, then drive away before anyone knows what happened.

To picture that, here's Michigan stadium. It holds over 115,000 fans, packed tightly:

300px-Michigan_Stadium_2011.jpg


Here's what a 60 mm mortar looks like:

300px-M224_mortar_firing.jpg

The whole thing weighs just 40 pounds, and each round weighs around 3 pounds, so a sturdy person could carry the weapon and two dozen rounds, without too much effort, and for a two-person team it would be easy.

That will fire between 76, and 3,816 yards effectively. If you set up 1000 yards away, well within range, to give yourself an easy shot, you could be way the hell out here, far beyond the radius of any enhanced security:

View attachment 37454

A 60-mm HE M49A4 will cover about a 33-foot blast radius lethally (other 60 mm rounds go from about half that to about twice that, so I'm taking the middle). Here's what that radius looks like superimposed on the stadium:

View attachment 37455
Roughly 1200 people would be inside that circle and would be dead, from a single hit -- with severe injuries all around it. That's 1200 dead with a single shot. Land just three shots in the stadium before it empties, and you've carried out the deadliest terrorist attack in history.... on live TV. The weapon is designed to fire 30 shots in one minute, so even throwing away the first few for ranging, it would be hard not to kill far more people than died on 9/11.

And that's with a fairly small and cheap mortar -- a plan you could pull off for $10,000 or so solo or with a two-man team. With a four-man team and about twice the funds, you could go with a 120 mm mortar, mounted to a pickup truck. The 120 mm HE shells have a lethality radius of 225 feet, so dropping one at midfield would kill about 40,000 people at a shot, and any shot landing anywhere in that stadium would kill at least 10,000. And after firing 15 shots in a minute, you could just drive away.

How do you defend against that? A 60 mm mortar has a range of up to 2.1 miles, and a 12 mm mortar has a range of up to 4.5 miles. You simply cannot police a range that far around every event. And there are hundreds of thousands of these mortars available all around the world for cheap. Even if you couldn't get your hands on one, something home-made would be easy. There are home-made devices that chuck pumpkins as far as 4700 feet -- chucking a bunch of home-made pipe bombs with one of those would be child's play.

The Russian white Supremacist says buy a Russian mortar:

First, buy a soviet surplus mortar, in the 60 mm range, along with a couple dozen anti-personnel rounds. These are dirt cheap and widely available all over the world, so the only trick would be smuggling them into the US. It may even be possible to buy them here.

The Russians do not make a 60mm Mortar...My suspect is you know not which you speak of, and obviously you are not IRA, so you have no experience and would not know how to operate one. Outside probably scares you anyway.

What you need is something lightweight, guaranteed to work because carrying a mortar that weighs 40 pounds plus is not your thing. That being said, because your white Supremacist behavior, you probably would have trouble carrying 40 pounds of weight for any distance.

A 60 mm mortar has a range of up to 2.1 miles, and a 12 mm mortar has a range of up to 4.5 miles. You simply cannot police a range that far around every event. And there are hundreds of thousands of these mortars available all around the world for cheap.

1. No American made mortar (and the Russians do not make a 60mm) in a 60mm goes 2 miles and most are WWII weapons and again are about 40 lbs, and I cannot see you lily white supremacist ass carrying that thing for more than 15 feet.


2. There is no such thing as a 12mm mortar

3. Most mortars require a two man plus team, any solo fired mortar like the Japanese WWII Type 89 leg mortar is short range(120 meters)

Conclusion:

1. Our perpetrator of Fake, did not do a very smart job.

2. He did not research what he was talking about.

3. Pick up the phone call your mommy and she will tell you how smart you are again...but it's only 1200(that is a time reference) so this will only be the third call to mommy today, so far.

The QB or Passer rating:

fake.jpg

military-mortar_round-artillery-missile-missile_launcher-soldier-hbrn556_low.jpg
 
Because, unlike you, I have a respect for the power of inquiry. I think we tend to find good ideas by openly exploring questions, rather than by dogmatically adhering to received answers.

If you had respect for inquiry you would have inquired about Mortars...but you do not and you will disregard my previous post on mortars.
 
True. The scenario I lay out here, though, could be done much more cheaply, with far fewer people, and a much higher death toll. In an open society like ours, there are vulnerabilities everywhere, and there's little you can do about most of them.
what could be cheaper than a one way airline ticket?
 
Name just one 60 mm mortar made by the Russians...You know Russian because your moniker is Russian, and no, it is not a single lens that goes in one eye.
 
I mean, I've seen my share of pot-smokers and Neanderthal celebrities who sway back and forth, eyes closed, and calmly ask:

"Hey mannnn.. why can't we all, just like... get along. Peace mann. Love. You know..."

That's what Ark sounds like here.

While he might want to control everything, the truth about life is, you can't.
I fully accept that you can't control everything. Some bad crap is going to happen no matter what. But you can influence the odds.

Consider murder rates. In Japan, there are 0.31 murders for every 100,000 people. In the US, we have 5.3 -- 17 times the rate. Near the end of the sociologically catastrophic Reagan/Bush era, the US hit its all-time peak for violent crime, and murders were happening at a rate of 9.8/100k. In El Salvador, the murder rate is 108.64. Murder happens everywhere, but the risk can be altered.

As such, simply saying that shit happens, and scoffing at those who'd like to make things safer, is a cop out. Policy can make a huge difference.
 
I fully accept that you can't control everything. Some bad crap is going to happen no matter what. But you can influence the odds.

Consider murder rates. In Japan, there are 0.31 murders for every 100,000 people. In the US, we have 5.3 -- 17 times the rate. Near the end of the sociologically catastrophic Reagan/Bush era, the US hit its all-time peak for violent crime, and murders were happening at a rate of 9.8/100k. In El Salvador, the murder rate is 108.64. Murder happens everywhere, but the risk can be altered.

As such, simply saying that shit happens, and scoffing at those who'd like to make things safer, is a cop out. Policy can make a huge difference.

Just not liberal policy which is usually like your set up here based on false information.

The point being is you think you can say anything fake and scare people into policy.
 
Name just one 60 mm mortar made by the Russians...You know Russian because your moniker is Russian, and no, it is not a single lens that goes in one eye.
Looks like the Russians don't make 60 mm, so you'd need to go with 50 mm or 82 mm for a similar effect, if you wanted Russian-made, but the details of the country of origin weren't the point. The point was simply that the world is awash in cheap mortars in roughly these sizes -- Poland, Iran, China, and Thailand all make or made 60 mm, as does the US and several of its allies, who in turn make them available abroad.
 
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