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US education

Wulk

Mayor
What the hell is the matter with US education? In the latest world wide Pisa tests the US came 36th out of 65, even Vietnam was away ahead of you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25187997

I'll have a guess at the reason: Lack of discipline in the classrooms. Kids talking back to the teacher, ignoring the teacher, talking on cell phones, talking to each other... etc.

Strangely enough, there's an exception, "If Massachusetts was ranked as a country it would be sixth best in the world, ahead of any European country". What's Massachusetts doing that the other States aren't?
 
What the hell is the matter with US education? In the latest world wide Pisa tests the US came 36th out of 65, even Vietnam was away ahead of you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25187997

I'll have a guess at the reason: Lack of discipline in the classrooms. Kids talking back to the teacher, ignoring the teacher, talking on cell phones, talking to each other... etc.

Strangely enough, there's an exception, "If Massachusetts was ranked as a country it would be sixth best in the world, ahead of any European country". What's Massachusetts doing that the other States aren't?

Vietnam was away ahead of you as well. The first lin in your story...

The UK is falling behind global rivals in international tests taken by 15-year-olds, failing to make the top 20 in maths, reading and science.

The UK has made little progress and remains among the average, middle-ranking countries, in 26th place for maths and 23rd for reading, broadly similar to three years ago.

But the UK has slipped in science from 16th to 21st place.

Only you could take a negative story about their own country (yes, I count Scotland as UK), and make it about someone else, totally ignoring the intent of the piece.
 
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http://neatoday.org/2013/12/03/what-do-the-2012-pisa-scores-tell-us-about-u-s-schools/

In 2012, Martin Carnoy and Richard Rothstein of the Economic Policy Institute analyzed the 2009 PISA data and compared U.S. results by social class to three top performers—Canada, Finland and South Korea. They found that the relatively low ranking of U.S. students could be attributed in no small part to a disproportionate number of students from high-poverty schools among the test-takers. After adjusting the U.S. score to take into account social class composition and possible sampling flaws, Carnoy and Rothstein estimated that the United States placed fourth in reading and 10th in math – up from 14th and 25th in the PISA ranking, respectively.
 
I'll have a guess at the reason: Lack of discipline in the classrooms. Kids talking back to the teacher, ignoring the teacher, talking on cell phones, talking to each other... etc.

I would guess that is an oversimplification. Parents less involved. Parents not deferring to the teachers expertise (excessive and improper meddling). Bad teachers that the system can't weed out. Poor administrators. Out of control boards of education. Community priorities (sports, bad course requirements such as in science (I am looking at you creationists), etc.), ...
 
The UK, 10 points above the US. You're objection sounds, to me, like a strawman argument and ignores the main thrust of the TP.

I know what's wrong with education in the UK, I live there. I was asking what is wrong with US education that has you are in 36th place.

You could have responded with what States are bringing your overall scores down to such a level, and the reasons for their doing so. But, all you have the intellect for is handing out insults.
 
What the hell is the matter with US education? In the latest world wide Pisa tests the US came 36th out of 65, even Vietnam was away ahead of you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25187997

I'll have a guess at the reason: Lack of discipline in the classrooms. Kids talking back to the teacher, ignoring the teacher, talking on cell phones, talking to each other... etc.

Strangely enough, there's an exception, "If Massachusetts was ranked as a country it would be sixth best in the world, ahead of any European country". What's Massachusetts doing that the other States aren't?


Probably providing more good quality job opportunities. School performance tends to track inversely with poverty levels.
 
The UK, 10 points above the US. You're objection sounds, to me, like a strawman argument and ignores the main thrust of the TP.

I know what's wrong with education in the UK, I live there. I was asking what is wrong with US education that has you are in 36th place.

You could have responded with what States are bringing your overall scores down to such a level, and the reasons for their doing so. But, all you have the intellect for is handing out insults.
You again, as always, miss the point. You took an article 99% about the UK, and tried to make it about the US.

You FAIL. Again.
 
Common Core/Smart Phones/Teachers Unions/Over Paid Administrations/Spoiled Kids/Single Parent Homes/Birth to death Gov teet Suckers...............need more
 
What the hell is the matter with US education? In the latest world wide Pisa tests the US came 36th out of 65, even Vietnam was away ahead of you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25187997

I'll have a guess at the reason: Lack of discipline in the classrooms. Kids talking back to the teacher, ignoring the teacher, talking on cell phones, talking to each other... etc.

Strangely enough, there's an exception, "If Massachusetts was ranked as a country it would be sixth best in the world, ahead of any European country". What's Massachusetts doing that the other States aren't?

What the hell is wrong??? Are you sitting down and comfy.. this will take a while.

There are so many areas that are wrong. First and foremost, I think as a country we do not value education. I see this as a parent of a child in first grade in our public school system. Parent teacher conferences - less than 30% of the parents attend. PTA - less than 50% of the families pay dues, and of them less than 10% of the families are active in the organization. Parents of students in DS's class have complained to me about the homework they get, how it impacts their evening activities, how they don't do the parts they think are too hard.... The teacher told me last week in DS's parent teacher conference that he is essentially getting busy work because he is already three reading levels and two math levels ahead of his grade level. DS is no genius... but we - gasp... make him read to us practically every night, we gasp... make him do his homework every night.... we gasp.. make him do enrichment activities over the weekend in the summer to sharpen his skills. Those kind of things are common place in other countries. School comes before many other things. - yet here even in a State that by many measures rivals Massachussettes in quality of the school system and in a county which has one of the highest average incomes of any county in the state. And, THAT is how lax parents are about their kids schooling.

Then we go to teaching. We do not get enough good teachers. PART of that is of course we don't pay particularly well. And, I would support raises for teachers if there was some way to guarantee we were getting good teachers. I don't think standardized tests is necessarily the way to do that. But, I think even a layman like myself can watch a Teacher in action and see who connects with the kids, who motivates them, who encourages them, who actually is getting through to them. I can't believe that an experienced educator can't really make the call.

Parents don't respect teachers - and by extension their kids don't. Many of that is the "speshul snowflake"syndrome that so many parents seem to impart on their kids. We have a real entitlement attitude problem here. Overall we have little or no respect for "authority" or actually even just common courtesy. I was at a seminar yesterday and people are having their own side conversations while the presenter was speaking. How freaking rude. Just shut up and at least ACT like you are paying attention... but if this is how these grown adults are acting - how do they raise their kids? And, not only that but all you need to do is turn on almost any network kids show - and you will see kids being all too cool for themselves, parents and teachers that are complete bumbling idiots, and kids being the "adults" in many situations.... and guess what - that message gets communicated loud and clear to kids who think that they have the right to talk back to or be disrespectful in the same way as their favorite characters.

We don't as a culture value excellence in a way like I think we used to. And, certainly not in the way that many Asian cultures do. There was a book out a few years ago, I forget the full title but it was something like "Tiger Mother" or something about an Asian-American woman and how she raised her kids in more of the Asian traditions. Making them practice their violins for hours. Eschewing extra cirriculars that were not strictly academic, demanding excellent grades and riding her kids mercilously to get them. And many of the criticisms of this woman were things like - her kids will hate her, it is child abuse, they will rebel, she needs to let her kids be kids, etc... You know what - as a parent I don't think you should be concerned that your kids will hate you becasuse you demand excellence from them if they do - you have not done a good job, and if you worry about it, you are not doing a good job.

At any rate, I think most of this will get worse under common core. So much of this country can't keep up as it is, it will only get worse when the top performers are inevitably held back ( because how else can you have the same curriculum everywhere if you have students that are not as advanced as others).

I think that it will also get worse as they continue to pass madatory attendance laws. MD just passed one - that makes school attendence compulsory until 18... it used to be 16... the problem as I see it is, it will only keep troublesome and disruptive kids in school where they will not only serve to distract students and create discipline problems and take resources away from those who actually want to learn, it will also continue to allow them to serve as bad examples for kids who are only skating the line themselves.

connie
 
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What the hell is the matter with US education? In the latest world wide Pisa tests the US came 36th out of 65, even Vietnam was away ahead of you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25187997

I'll have a guess at the reason: Lack of discipline in the classrooms. Kids talking back to the teacher, ignoring the teacher, talking on cell phones, talking to each other... etc.

Strangely enough, there's an exception, "If Massachusetts was ranked as a country it would be sixth best in the world, ahead of any European country". What's Massachusetts doing that the other States aren't?

Yep to all of that.
No discipline.
And the teachers are not backed up by administration or parents.
The teacher is a conduit for learning. All the money in the world, all the nice stuff, and all the best teachers will not produce students with a good education if the students themselves have shut their minds off to learning.

Add that to the dumbing down of our subject matter ........ and you have a generation (maybe more) of uneducated, ignorant people.
 
You again, as always, miss the point. You took an article 99% about the UK, and tried to make it about the US.

You FAIL. Again.
I would try and have an intellectual duel with you, but, it wouldn't be fair to take on an unarmed man.

Sure, the article is mostly about the UK, it's published by the BBC. I was referring to the fact of the US being in 36th place. I saw your post above where the authors reckon that if you take out all the poor, dead beat, schools, the US would be in 4th place. The poor, dead beat, schools were factored in the assessment for all of the countries - take out all of the underperforming schools and all of the countries would be sharing the No 1 slot.
 
I would try and have an intellectual duel with you, but, it wouldn't be fair to take on an unarmed man.

Sure, the article is mostly about the UK, it's published by the BBC. I was referring to the fact of the US being in 36th place. I saw your post above where the authors reckon that if you take out all the poor, dead beat, schools, the US would be in 4th place. The poor, dead beat, schools were factored in the assessment for all of the countries - take out all of the underperforming schools and all of the countries would be sharing the No 1 slot.
No, they were not, That was the point of the article I posted.

You are not only disingenuous, you're a liar to boot.
 
No, they were not, That was the point of the article I posted.

You are not only disingenuous, you're a liar to boot.

I don't lie, why should I. I've noticed that those who cast the "lie" allegation around are usually the biggest liars themselves.
 
Loved Connies post, she nailed it. I have a lot of teacher friends and they all try very hard to do the right thing. Parents really started this mess decades ago. Something about the boomers made them think their kids are the most incredible creations to ever walk the earth. Likely because our folks generation was still old school and never really gave a shit about our feelings, they spoke, we listened and obeyed. Our generation apparently wanted to be nice and that extended to teachers. Kid is unruly and gets disciplined, parent goes to principal or courts. Look at communal showers for chrissakes. Kids don't take showers anymore after PE, hell, they don't even have PE in most places. As for tests, I got news for everyone. I grew up in the best public school system in the nation in California in the 60s. When it came time for SATs, we had plenty of lousy scores too. What I remember though is that kids were separated into tracks so that the smart kids all stayed in the same groups throughout school. The slower kids got more attention.
 
Sadly where I live the vast majority of the kids in our public schools are either immigrants or children of immigrants from south of the Rio Grande. These families come from a culture that for the most part does not recognize the value of high achievement in schools and to them the school is free breakfast, free lunch and free daycare until this mind set changes most public schools will underperform. The private school industry is in a growth mode where concerned parents with the means are sending their kids. All 3 of my kids were/are high achievers they all have attended schools blighted by illegal and legal immigrants generally speaking the teachers are suitable for the challenge of offering a quality education but you can't change the culture. If my kids can make high grades by doing their work and studying there is no reason why most of the other kids can't do it. See how many schools with these dempgraphics you can find in Ma.

http://www.schooldigger.com/go/TX/schools/4110004682/school.aspx
 
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I can't be bothered - what you write is, generally of no interest to me.

What's this: "I dare you" crap, why not double dare - are you still at school?
Yet you continue to quote my posts and try to blather your way into proving the article wasn't about the UK.

I simple asked you to prove I ever lied. You can't.
 
What the hell is the matter with US education? In the latest world wide Pisa tests the US came 36th out of 65, even Vietnam was away ahead of you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25187997

I'll have a guess at the reason: Lack of discipline in the classrooms. Kids talking back to the teacher, ignoring the teacher, talking on cell phones, talking to each other... etc.

Strangely enough, there's an exception, "If Massachusetts was ranked as a country it would be sixth best in the world, ahead of any European country". What's Massachusetts doing that the other States aren't?

What the hell is the matter with US education? In the latest world wide Pisa tests the US came 36th out of 65, even Vietnam was away ahead of you.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25187997
I'll have a guess at the reason: Lack of discipline in the classrooms. Kids talking back to the teacher, ignoring the teacher, talking on cell phones, talking to each other... etc.
Strangely enough, there's an exception, "If Massachusetts was ranked as a country it would be sixth best in the world, ahead of any European country". What's Massachusetts doing that the other States aren't?
The Massachusetts exception, I think, is a very good one to think about. Part of it is that Massachusetts is wealthy and wealthy areas do better than poor ones, generally. But that's not the whole story. Massachusetts isn' our wealthiest state, and some fairly wealthy states have lousy education stats. I think it's more about culture. In Massachusetts you find a lot less of that creationist, climate-change-denying, egg-head ridiculing, redneck attitude that mistakes willful ignorance for folksy authenticity. I live in Massachusetts, and it's a state others might call snobby, because of the respect people here have for educational credentials, fine arts, and science for the sake of science.

It probably has a lot to do to being the location of so many of the world's finest universites and colleges (Harvard, MIT, BC, BU, Wellesley, Amherst, Tufts, Brandeis, and so on), as well as various research institutions and elite hospitals. And there may also be some residual effect from Puritan history and the centuries of intellectual traditon that gave rise to. Take the town of Concord, for example. Outside of Massachusetts, it's mainly known for one of the first battles of the American Revolution, but it was also the epicenter of the transcendental movement -- a place where you can find the homes of Ralph Waldo Emerson, Nathaniel Hawthorne, and Louisa May Alcott ("Little Women"), and Daniel Chester French (sculptor of the Lincoln Memorial), along with the cabin of Thoreau on Walden Pond, all in small town of fewer than 18,000 residents. That kind of intellectual and artistic tradition leaves a mark on the culture.

So, some of what makes Massachusetts succeed so well where most of America fails can't easily be replicated elsewhere. That intellectual history has to develop with time. But we could at least work to combat the know-nothing culture present in so much of the country, which reflexively dismisses conscientious thinkers as elitists, and to foster a renewed respect for the egg-heads. Kids pick up on the messages the adults around them are sending, especially those that are not meant for them. When adults sneer at people of learning, high art, impractical science, etc., kids get the message that mental endeavors aren't really worth the effort. When adults treat those things as prestigious, on the other hand, kids strive for that prestige.

I also think, just from a more practical perspective, that Massachusetts spends a lot on education, which has to help, and that, like Europe, it's relatively unreligious. States and countries that are extremely religious tend to be educational backwaters (Mississippi, our most religious state, is also our worst educated), while states and countries where religion has fallen more out of favor tend to be more educationally accomplished (Massachusetts is one of our least religious states). It's hard to demonstrate cause-and-effect in that correlation, but I agree with the main author of our Constitution, who said that religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and renders it unfit for every noble enterprise. When you're training children to believe in utter nonsense from the time they are most vulnerable, and wasting countless hundreds of hours of their lives sitting in pews being taught to submit their minds to absurdities, you shouldn't be surprised when they can't then think their way out of a paper bag. In Massachusetts, a lot more of those Sunday mornings are spent on things that at least have a hope of strengthening, not weakening, the mind.
 
i gave this a (big) "like".

when CBS tackled this story on the news last night, they showed a clip of a chinese classroom. there were no students with gang attire on; no unruly interruptions; no ignorant disrespect of the teacher. i can only assume there are no metal detectors at the door and no need for narcotics sniffing dogs at student lockers either.

teachers blame the home environment for the lack of discipline at school.

by that so called "logic" are we next goign to be asked to tolerate endless videogames, TV in lieu of class, and napping at any hour while school is in session?
 
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