We need to face a simple fact about our problem with Healthcare in America.

[Spamature]

That fact is that we keep fighting (at least half of us) against ourselves to prevent us from moving towards universal healthcare. We have a system that no other country wants. What is more ridiculous is that we don't want it either. We know UHC will be cheaper and cover everyone.

Here is something pretty sobering.

A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that between 60,000 and 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[65] The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).[66] The availability of advanced medical technology and sophisticated training of physicians are cited as driving motivators for growth in foreigners traveling to the U.S. for medical care,[65] whereas the low costs for hospital stays and major/complex procedures at Western-accredited medical facilities abroad are cited as major motivators for American travelers.[66]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States

So around 10 times as many people leave the US to get medical care than come to the US from the rest of the entire world to get medical care. They do it in order to get the most advanced treatments for their conditions. We do it in order to be able to afford any treatment for our conditions. So here we are treating people from other places in the world while denying that same advanced treatment to our own people on the basis of affordability and lack of insurance coverage.

 

[Dino]

That fact is that we keep fighting (at least half of us) against ourselves to prevent us from moving towards universal healthcare. We have a system that no other country wants. What is more ridiculous is that we don't want it either. We know UHC will be cheaper and cover everyone.

Here is something pretty sobering.

A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that between 60,000 and 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[65] The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).[66] The availability of advanced medical technology and sophisticated training of physicians are cited as driving motivators for growth in foreigners traveling to the U.S. for medical care,[65] whereas the low costs for hospital stays and major/complex procedures at Western-accredited medical facilities abroad are cited as major motivators for American travelers.[66]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States

So around 10 times as many people leave the US to get medical care than come to the US from the rest of the entire world to get medical care. They do it in order to get the most advanced treatments for their conditions. We do it in order to be able to afford any treatment for our conditions. So here we are treating people from other places in the world while denying that same advanced treatment to our own people on the basis of affordability and lack of insurance coverage.

I don't know which side is going to take the responsibility for making government pay all the health care costs.
I don't know who's ready to be the party of 2 trillion dollar deficits and an exponentially increasing uncontrolled debt. There's not a tax plan you could devise that would cover those kinds of costs.

 

[resident_evil]

That fact is that we keep fighting (at least half of us) against ourselves to prevent us from moving towards universal healthcare. We have a system that no other country wants. What is more ridiculous is that we don't want it either. We know UHC will be cheaper and cover everyone.

Here is something pretty sobering.

A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that between 60,000 and 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[65] The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).[66] The availability of advanced medical technology and sophisticated training of physicians are cited as driving motivators for growth in foreigners traveling to the U.S. for medical care,[65] whereas the low costs for hospital stays and major/complex procedures at Western-accredited medical facilities abroad are cited as major motivators for American travelers.[66]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States

So around 10 times as many people leave the US to get medical care than come to the US from the rest of the entire world to get medical care. They do it in order to get the most advanced treatments for their conditions. We do it in order to be able to afford any treatment for our conditions. So here we are treating people from other places in the world while denying that same advanced treatment to our own people on the basis of affordability and lack of insurance coverage.

You don't know anything.

The patients coming here are the rich ones looking for cutting edge care. The patients who go abroad do so to Costa Rica, India, and even China. Not for cutting edge medicine but for shopping reasons. They found standard care for ordinary issues from cheaper labor.

If majority are forced to shop in this country and not have costs hidden by insurance companies or the government prices will drop. Not only will prices drop but we will also keep our cutting edge medicine. That is what shopping affords.

Single payer is about mediocrity.

 

[Spamature]

I don't know which side is going to take the responsibility for making government pay all the health care costs.
I don't know who's ready to be the party of 2 trillion dollar deficits and an exponentially increasing uncontrolled debt. There's not a tax plan you could devise that would cover those kinds of costs.

67% of all healthcare in this country is already paid for by the govt. Only thing is the govt pays for the expensive part. Like old people with a lot of medical problems through Medicare Then it pays for poor people who can't afford the cost of treatment with Medicaid. Then it leaves the profitable portion of the populatin that pays for itself in the hands of for profit insurers. We are being suckers in that regard and creating more debt for the govt by doing so not less.

Also there is a point I made years ago. If we had national health care you people would not have to carry insurance in regards to homes or cars or business that pay the medical cost of people made ill or injured. Because their medical treatment is already covered under a universal program. That also cuts down of fraudulent lawsuit since you essentially take crooked doctors out of the profit stream in lawsuits.

 

[Spamature]

You don't know anything.

The patients coming here are the rich ones looking for cutting edge care. The patients who go abroad do so to Costa Rica, India, and even China. Not for cutting edge medicine but for shopping reasons. They found standard care for ordinary issues from cheaper labor.

If majority are forced to shop in this country and not have costs hidden by insurance companies or the government prices will drop. Not only will prices drop but we will also keep our cutting edge medicine. That is what shopping affords.

Single payer is about mediocrity.

Shopping ? Do you really think you or most people are medically informed enough to make "shopping" decision about which medical procedures you should have and how they should be done ? Or do you think it might be better if you left that up to hmmm... I don't know..... maybe someone who practices medicine for a living or at least went to medical school ?

 

[Dawg]

67% of all healthcare in this country is already paid for by the govt. Only thing is the govt pays for the expensive part. Like old people with a lot of medical problems through Medicare Then it pays for poor people who can't afford the cost of treatment with Medicaid. Then it leaves the profitable portion of the populatin that pays for itself in the hands of for profit insurers. We are being suckers in that regard and creating more debt for the govt by doing so not less.

Also there is a point I made years ago. If we had national health care you people would not have to carry insurance in regards to homes or cars or business that pay the medical cost of people made ill or injured. Because their medical treatment is already covered under a universal program. That also cuts down of fraudulent lawsuit since you essentially take crooked doctors out of the profit stream in lawsuits.

Those "old people" paid into Medicare their entire working life, sure I don't need explain to you where government gets the money to pay for those "old people"______________________do I?

BTW: check your obits, many that paid into SS/Medicare dying before they can collect one dime that paid into system for 40/50 years.......dead at 58/50/61

If you worked and paid income taxes you would have already known this!

BTW: our health care system is so bad people all over the world are dying to come here for health care.........

 

[Dino]

67% of all healthcare in this country is already paid for by the govt. Only thing is the govt pays for the expensive part. Like old people with a lot of medical problems through Medicare Then it pays for poor people who can't afford the cost of treatment with Medicaid. Then it leaves the profitable portion of the populatin that pays for itself in the hands of for profit insurers. We are being suckers in that regard and creating more debt for the govt by doing so not less.

Also there is a point I made years ago. If we had national health care you people would not have to carry insurance in regards to homes or cars or business that pay the medical cost of people made ill or injured. Because their medical treatment is already covered under a universal program. That also cuts down of fraudulent lawsuit since you essentially take crooked doctors out of the profit stream in lawsuits.

The problem truly is that the left has completely skewed the entire idea of health "insurance".
Insurance, as for malpractice, your car, your house, is meant for worst case scenarios and covering the expenses of such so that it does not bankrupt everyone.
The left's idea of "auto insurance" would necessarily cover oil changes and fill-ups of gas.
Because every single doctor visit, procedure and medication is handled thru medical insurance when it should be handled by individuals.
Having the left handle the fix for the problem or the right taking the blame for trying to fix the problems Obamacare has brought on is laughable.

 

[ObamacareForever]

You don't know anything.

The patients coming here are the rich ones looking for cutting edge care. The patients who go abroad do so to Costa Rica, India, and even China. Not for cutting edge medicine but for shopping reasons. They found standard care for ordinary issues from cheaper labor.

If majority are forced to shop in this country and not have costs hidden by insurance companies or the government prices will drop. Not only will prices drop but we will also keep our cutting edge medicine. That is what shopping affords.

Single payer is about mediocrity.

Shopping is not possible for most healthcare.
-Besides the obvious fact that you don't have time to price shop in the back of an ambulance.
-Doctors don't have to agree on what's wrong with you, or how to treat you. You don't go to the doctor is cheapest, you go the doctor who cures you.

 

[ObamacareForever]

Those "old people" paid into Medicare their entire working life, sure I don't need explain to you where government gets the money to pay for those "old people"______________________do I?

BTW: check your obits, many that paid into SS/Medicare dying before they can collect one dime that paid into system for 40/50 years.......dead at 58/50/61

If you worked and paid income taxes you would have already known this!

BTW: our health care system is so bad people all over the world are dying to come here for health care.........

Those old people who paid into it, obviously didn't pay enough into it.

 

[ObamacareForever]

The problem truly is that the left has completely skewed the entire idea of health "insurance".
Insurance, as for malpractice, your car, your house, is meant for worst case scenarios and covering the expenses of such so that it does not bankrupt everyone.
The left's idea of "auto insurance" would necessarily cover oil changes and fill-ups of gas.
Because every single doctor visit, procedure and medication is handled thru medical insurance when it should be handled by individuals.
Having the left handle the fix for the problem or the right taking the blame for trying to fix the problems Obamacare has brought on is laughable.

You can go to the doctor and pay cash if you want. Its still cheaper 99% of the time to visit the doctor if you have insurance.

 

[Dawg]

Shopping is not possible for most healthcare.
-Besides the obvious fact that you don't have time to price shop in the back of an ambulance.
-Doctors don't have to agree on what's wrong with you, or how to treat you. You don't go to the doctor is cheapest, you go the doctor who cures you.

Leave it to libs to not have insurance until in ambulance
Negative
"go to the Doctor is cheapest"--------OMG

 

[Dawg]

Those old people who paid into it, obviously didn't pay enough into it.

they paid what the damn Law said they had to pay.................
an Accountant ll would know that!

 

[Spamature]

The problem truly is that the left has completely skewed the entire idea of health "insurance".
Insurance, as for malpractice, your car, your house, is meant for worst case scenarios and covering the expenses of such so that it does not bankrupt everyone.
The left's idea of "auto insurance" would necessarily cover oil changes and fill-ups of gas.
Because every single doctor visit, procedure and medication is handled thru medical insurance when it should be handled by individuals.
Having the left handle the fix for the problem or the right taking the blame for trying to fix the problems Obamacare has brought on is laughable.

I am not talking about what the left's idea of anything is. I am talking about an actual expense that disappears with UHC. Pay for it individually ? Really ? If you believe that then tell your employer to shove your medical insurance and volunteer to handle the cost of care yourself. What is laughable are the lame excuses you guy put up out of spite or what ever it is that drives you to want what no other country wants.

 

[resident_evil]

Shopping ? Do you really think you or most people are medically informed enough to make "shopping" decision about which medical procedures you should have and how they should be done ? Or do you think it might be better if you left that up to hmmm... I don't know..... maybe someone who practices medicine for a living or at least went to medical school ?

Spammy,

Even with full insurance you go shopping but simply not for price.

P.S. I added something in red for you at the bottom.


Fix this. Add to this.

*********************************************************************************
THE NATIONAL HEALTHCARE PLAN AS IT SHOULD BE.

To save the quality of our healthcare and expand coverage we need to change our insurance paradigm. No longer should insurance cover regular, urgent, or mild chronic care. The only insurance people should be able to purchase should be emergency and catastrophic coverage. People should be able to pay out of pocket for much of the healthcare they receive. To do so we need a new Health Savings Account (H.S.A.) paradigm. People should be able to put a dollar into an H.S.A. completely tax free. In other words if I made $50,000 this fiscal year and put $8,000 into my H.S.A., then my income taxes should start being calculated at $42,000. Whatever my employer contributes to my H.S.A. should also be completely tax free and that H.S.A. should be a lifetime right.

In exchange for that tax right I should NOT be able to spend that $8,000 on any other thing other than actual healthcare or health insurance coverage (i.e. emergency/catastrophic insurance). That $8,000 is now in a new and separate marketplace – one reserved for healthcare related purchases only – never to be taken out for any other reason than for medical need. It would be a debit card system with HSA funds only that would accumulate over the years. This solves our national healthcare problems period.

THE DETAILS

Truly, the devil is in the details and so it should be stated that Medicaid, Medicare, and the VA should continue to exist but changed to reflect the new healthcare paradigm. The government should subsidize H.S.A. accounts for the poor, the retired, and veterans while providing for the emergency/catastrophic healthcare insurance (and services). VA hospitals should not be closed.

Insurance premiums should be legally tied to preventative medical care such as regular checkups, blood tests, measured fitness scores…. If you have checkups, blood tests, good fitness scores for your age group, and/or a good track record for managing your existing ailments, then your premiums should be less than for those who do not have better life long health practices.

Monies in the healthcare market (i.e. in Health Saving Accounts) should be freely transferable from one HSA account to another HSA account without any kind of penalty. This would allow families to take care of each others’ healthcare costs and expedite securely charity donations. As long as the money is spent in the healthcare market everybody will benefit from this provision.

All healthcare providers should be required to post all healthcare costs on the internet for the purposes to enable shopping for healthcare services. The difference in healthcare services will then reflect the quality of care being provided. This is one benefit of shopping for services. The other benefit to shopping for healthcare is that fraud will drop drastically when the shopper’s own finite allowance for healthcare is on the line.

Today the U.S. subsidizes the healthcare of other advanced nations such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada and countries Europe. Our drugs cost less in those countries than they do here. In Switzerland the government mandates their drug manufacturing industry to charge less than cost and are then needing to charge those outside of Switzerland much more than cost plus profit. Why are we subsidizing socialized medicine in these countries? Enough is enough.

The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) needs to be repealed. Physicians once again need to be given their constitutional rights back to create and run practices as ongoing business concerns. Businesses like dentistry, cosmetic surgery, and lasik eye surgery have generally not been paid for by health insurance companies and they are yet thriving businesses. Freeing the entire medical field and putting purchasing choices in the hands of consumers will increase the numbers covered and increase the quality of care.

Tax free Health Savings Accounts are the ultimate in healthcare transportability plans period. They cross state lines without any problem whatsoever and do not infringe on privacy rights the government would get rid of.

For every one hundred new cases of people with pre-existing conditions (every fiscal year) the insurance industry should be required to enroll 70 of them into one of their plans. Insurance companies will then compete via price for these patients/clients with pre-existing conditions. They will be looking and competing for the least sick of these individuals. The remaining 30 of 100 should be then placed on some Medicaid program tailored for their needs and circumstances.

If someone earns $10 million and puts $5 million into his or her Health Saving Account tax free, that is fine. That money can’t be spent on anything else but healthcare, will be used instead of others’ tax money, and will drive medical discoveries. Steve Jobs’ medical issues were paid for by him and any new discoveries will eventually be shared by all and at a lower cost.

Health discoveries earned in part or in whole on the public dime (at the State or Federal level) that lead to new or better healthcare products should earn their fair share of revenue that should be funneled into the Medicaid-Medicare-VA system. If a discovery was 50% funded by government, then government should earn 50% of the profits for as long as a patent is held.

Taxing medical devices to lower healthcare prices and increase coverage is an oxymoron that needs to be repealed and I guess has been but needs to be permanently taken off the table as viable idea.

A new, licensed profession of Healthcare Advisor should be established to advocate for and help citizens navigate through their healthcare decisions should they decide they such help.

https://www.politicaljack.com/threads/a-viable-alternative-to-the-affordable-care-act.57028/

 

[connieb]

I am not talking about what the left's idea of anything is. I am talking about an actual expense that disappears with UHC. Pay for it individually ? Really ? If you believe that then tell your employer to shove your medical insurance and volunteer to handle the cost of care yourself. What is laughable are the lame excuses you guy put up out of spite or what ever it is that drives you to want what no other country wants.

Why are lefties such followers.. who cares what "no other country wants'> We are like no other country. And that should be a good thing. We are thing place where you can come from India where even as a dr. you would make a pittance and come here and make a fortune. No where else offers this. And in any other system there are price and age controls - to try to limit the costs to the system and that results in wait lists, being turned odwn for things etc. So, in our system, the "wait list" and turn down, is an effect of your insured status. Its still an allocation of a scarce resource. and even then their systems are going bankrupt.. here we just have people that go bankrupt. But your bankruptcy does not affect my level of care. When the system goes under it affects everyone.

The system has to paln for the fact that each person will cost them MILLIONS of dollars in costs. MILLIONS. How exactly do you ever plan for that, when you will never collect that. You can't. The insurance company can use actuarial estimates to set premiums and coverage. But, the Gov't can't If we all got the most rare form of cancer there ever was and the treatements costs tens of millions of dollars.. they would have to pay that. That can not be afforded.

I am all for some very basic medical care for all. Checkups, vaccinations, colds, etc. comfort care for the elderly, etc. But we spend a ton of money in end of life care.. its the most expensive of all. Do you know.. my coworkers father in law was on 15 different medications while he was in the nursing home for the last 3 years.. practically unresponsive and being fed on a tube through his nose..... Do you know how much money was pissed away keeping his cholesterol down, his blood thinned, ect.. just so he could be kept in alive - with a brain that didn't know who he he was? But, that is the stuff that people demand,.. when they arenot willing to let heir loved one go and when they don't have to foot the bill. The old guy could have been taken off blood thinners, etc 3 years ago, let nature take its course, and saved the system a ton of money. Another friend's father, on medicare, has incurable brain cancer... they can't get him into hospice because he still wants treatment even though his family no longer has the means to care for him at home. He is too big, too unstable too unable to do for himself or help them do for him. But, he doesn't pay for the treatment and the Dr.s don't want to face the liability of cutting him off.

SOMEONE has to say no to these things. The insurance companies have, with lifetime maximums. Now the Gov't... will what, have a death panel? That seems to go over well....

 

[Spamature]

Spammy,

Even with full insurance you go shopping but simply not for price.

P.S. I added something in red for you at the bottom.


Fix this. Add to this.

*********************************************************************************
THE NATIONAL HEALTHCARE PLAN AS IT SHOULD BE.

To save the quality of our healthcare and expand coverage we need to change our insurance paradigm. No longer should insurance cover regular, urgent, or mild chronic care. The only insurance people should be able to purchase should be emergency and catastrophic coverage. People should be able to pay out of pocket for much of the healthcare they receive. To do so we need a new Health Savings Account (H.S.A.) paradigm. People should be able to put a dollar into an H.S.A. completely tax free. In other words if I made $50,000 this fiscal year and put $8,000 into my H.S.A., then my income taxes should start being calculated at $42,000. Whatever my employer contributes to my H.S.A. should also be completely tax free and that H.S.A. should be a lifetime right.

In exchange for that tax right I should NOT be able to spend that $8,000 on any other thing other than actual healthcare or health insurance coverage (i.e. emergency/catastrophic insurance). That $8,000 is now in a new and separate marketplace – one reserved for healthcare related purchases only – never to be taken out for any other reason than for medical need. It would be a debit card system with HSA funds only that would accumulate over the years. This solves our national healthcare problems period.

THE DETAILS

Truly, the devil is in the details and so it should be stated that Medicaid, Medicare, and the VA should continue to exist but changed to reflect the new healthcare paradigm. The government should subsidize H.S.A. accounts for the poor, the retired, and veterans while providing for the emergency/catastrophic healthcare insurance (and services). VA hospitals should not be closed.

Insurance premiums should be legally tied to preventative medical care such as regular checkups, blood tests, measured fitness scores…. If you have checkups, blood tests, good fitness scores for your age group, and/or a good track record for managing your existing ailments, then your premiums should be less than for those who do not have better life long health practices.

Monies in the healthcare market (i.e. in Health Saving Accounts) should be freely transferable from one HSA account to another HSA account without any kind of penalty. This would allow families to take care of each others’ healthcare costs and expedite securely charity donations. As long as the money is spent in the healthcare market everybody will benefit from this provision.

All healthcare providers should be required to post all healthcare costs on the internet for the purposes to enable shopping for healthcare services. The difference in healthcare services will then reflect the quality of care being provided. This is one benefit of shopping for services. The other benefit to shopping for healthcare is that fraud will drop drastically when the shopper’s own finite allowance for healthcare is on the line.

Today the U.S. subsidizes the healthcare of other advanced nations such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada and countries Europe. Our drugs cost less in those countries than they do here. In Switzerland the government mandates their drug manufacturing industry to charge less than cost and are then needing to charge those outside of Switzerland much more than cost plus profit. Why are we subsidizing socialized medicine in these countries? Enough is enough.

The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) needs to be repealed. Physicians once again need to be given their constitutional rights back to create and run practices as ongoing business concerns. Businesses like dentistry, cosmetic surgery, and lasik eye surgery have generally not been paid for by health insurance companies and they are yet thriving businesses. Freeing the entire medical field and putting purchasing choices in the hands of consumers will increase the numbers covered and increase the quality of care.

Tax free Health Savings Accounts are the ultimate in healthcare transportability plans period. They cross state lines without any problem whatsoever and do not infringe on privacy rights the government would get rid of.

For every one hundred new cases of people with pre-existing conditions (every fiscal year) the insurance industry should be required to enroll 70 of them into one of their plans. Insurance companies will then compete via price for these patients/clients with pre-existing conditions. They will be looking and competing for the least sick of these individuals. The remaining 30 of 100 should be then placed on some Medicaid program tailored for their needs and circumstances.

If someone earns $10 million and puts $5 million into his or her Health Saving Account tax free, that is fine. That money can’t be spent on anything else but healthcare, will be used instead of others’ tax money, and will drive medical discoveries. Steve Jobs’ medical issues were paid for by him and any new discoveries will eventually be shared by all and at a lower cost.

Health discoveries earned in part or in whole on the public dime (at the State or Federal level) that lead to new or better healthcare products should earn their fair share of revenue that should be funneled into the Medicaid-Medicare-VA system. If a discovery was 50% funded by government, then government should earn 50% of the profits for as long as a patent is held.

Taxing medical devices to lower healthcare prices and increase coverage is an oxymoron that needs to be repealed and I guess has been but needs to be permanently taken off the table as viable idea.

A new, licensed profession of Healthcare Advisor should be established to advocate for and help citizens navigate through their healthcare decisions should they decide they such help.

https://www.politicaljack.com/threads/a-viable-alternative-to-the-affordable-care-act.57028/

You already have a healthcare advisor. He's the guy in with in white coat with a stethoscope who tells you to stick out your tongue and say ahhhhhhh....

 

[Arkady]

You don't know anything.

The patients coming here are the rich ones looking for cutting edge care. The patients who go abroad do so to Costa Rica, India, and even China. Not for cutting edge medicine but for shopping reasons. They found standard care for ordinary issues from cheaper labor.

If majority are forced to shop in this country and not have costs hidden by insurance companies or the government prices will drop. Not only will prices drop but we will also keep our cutting edge medicine. That is what shopping affords.

Single payer is about mediocrity.

There are people for whom money is no object. They travel all over the world to seek out the best specialist for their particular issue. Often that brings them to the US, since we have a lot of top specialists. Other times it may bring them to Europe or Asia, etc. As I've pointed out before, even some of our top athletes (Kobe Bryant, Peyton Manning) will fly to Europe for treatment. For people who can afford to pick up and travel anywhere, and pay out of pocket, the whole planet is effectively one big healthcare system and it hardly matters where the doctors happen to be. But that's a fraction of one percent of the population, and so that's not what drives public health results. What drives results is how healthcare tends to be for the masses.

In those terms, the US is a marginal first-world nation. We ranks somewhere between about 20th and 50th best in the world, depending on how you're measuring. For example, before Obamacare, we ranked 50th for life expectancy, and currently we're 42nd. Affordability is very much an issue for the masses. And that's why you get lots of Americans in my part of the country road-tripping to Canada to buy the drugs or to get uncovered medical treatments.

 

[Spamature]

Why are lefties such followers.. who cares what "no other country wants'> We are like no other country. And that should be a good thing. We are thing place where you can come from India where even as a dr. you would make a pittance and come here and make a fortune. No where else offers this. And in any other system there are price and age controls - to try to limit the costs to the system and that results in wait lists, being turned odwn for things etc. So, in our system, the "wait list" and turn down, is an effect of your insured status. Its still an allocation of a scarce resource. and even then their systems are going bankrupt.. here we just have people that go bankrupt. But your bankruptcy does not affect my level of care. When the system goes under it affects everyone.

The system has to paln for the fact that each person will cost them MILLIONS of dollars in costs. MILLIONS. How exactly do you ever plan for that, when you will never collect that. You can't. The insurance company can use actuarial estimates to set premiums and coverage. But, the Gov't can't If we all got the most rare form of cancer there ever was and the treatements costs tens of millions of dollars.. they would have to pay that. That can not be afforded.

I am all for some very basic medical care for all. Checkups, vaccinations, colds, etc. comfort care for the elderly, etc. But we spend a ton of money in end of life care.. its the most expensive of all. Do you know.. my coworkers father in law was on 15 different medications while he was in the nursing home for the last 3 years.. practically unresponsive and being fed on a tube through his nose..... Do you know how much money was pissed away keeping his cholesterol down, his blood thinned, ect.. just so he could be kept in alive - with a brain that didn't know who he he was? But, that is the stuff that people demand,.. when they arenot willing to let heir loved one go and when they don't have to foot the bill. The old guy could have been taken off blood thinners, etc 3 years ago, let nature take its course, and saved the system a ton of money. Another friend's father, on medicare, has incurable brain cancer... they can't get him into hospice because he still wants treatment even though his family no longer has the means to care for him at home. He is too big, too unstable too unable to do for himself or help them do for him. But, he doesn't pay for the treatment and the Dr.s don't want to face the liability of cutting him off.

SOMEONE has to say no to these things. The insurance companies have, with lifetime maximums. Now the Gov't... will what, have a death panel? That seems to go over well....

Your solution IS death panels. Most of your post was about people who should be left to die from their ailments to save money. When the ACA was to include discussions about end of life care with your doctors. You Gopers went off the rails with shouts about death panels. Do you guys even listen to what you say versus what you actually do ?

Yes doctors come here from other countries to make a fortune off of our system. That should tell you something about our system. That it is so tilted towards profit that it turns caregivers into fortune seekers.

 

[connieb]

Your solution IS death panels. Most of your post was about people who should be left to die from their ailments to save money. When the ACA was to include discussions about end of life care with your doctors. You Gopers went off the rails with shouts about death panels. Do you guys even listen to what you say versus what you actually do ?

Yes doctors come here from other countries to make a fortune off of our system. That should tell you something about our system. That it is so tilted towards profit that it turns caregivers into fortune seekers.

Yes, someone has to make the decision about who we are going to spend resources on and who we are NOT going to. That is a necessary fact that makes any system work. In a universal system, its the Gov't. If you have insurance, its the insurance co, if you don't.. then its your wallet.

Yes, the come here to make a fortune. That is right. And? Why the hell would you piss away the best years of your life in school and residency and NOT make a fortune?

 

[Drumcollie]

That fact is that we keep fighting (at least half of us) against ourselves to prevent us from moving towards universal healthcare. We have a system that no other country wants. What is more ridiculous is that we don't want it either. We know UHC will be cheaper and cover everyone.

Here is something pretty sobering.

A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that between 60,000 and 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[65] The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).[66] The availability of advanced medical technology and sophisticated training of physicians are cited as driving motivators for growth in foreigners traveling to the U.S. for medical care,[65] whereas the low costs for hospital stays and major/complex procedures at Western-accredited medical facilities abroad are cited as major motivators for American travelers.[66]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States

So around 10 times as many people leave the US to get medical care than come to the US from the rest of the entire world to get medical care. They do it in order to get the most advanced treatments for their conditions. We do it in order to be able to afford any treatment for our conditions. So here we are treating people from other places in the world while denying that same advanced treatment to our own people on the basis of affordability and lack of insurance coverage.

Fact is Obama promised and did not deliver and now that crap needs to be fixed. If you want people to have free healthcare...pay off the debt and spend the money however you like...But don't "saladin2" us over and then complain because we now have fix Obama's crappy ass failure of a healthcare system. Maybe if he were not so jacked on getting a plan and took the time to do it right, we could have had a good healthcare system...But ten trillion of debt later, we have got to be more cost effective.