Spamature
President
Run from your top post if you like, Forrest. Just remember, [Unwelcome language removed] Face made that video to upset you. I posted here to get you to think about the larger picture. We see which you really want to do.
C
Capitalist
Guest
Spamature
President
I have only asked you what you think about the effects of exporting of culture. If that's a subject derailing red herring, then I don't know what isn't in a thread about the effects of exporting of culture.
Emily
NSDAP Kanzler
That was the plan.
If we can fix what's broken in the West we'll have a chance of fixing what the West broke elsewhere.
Spamature
President
I don't think it was a plan. It's just the natural outcome of bad situations. People pick up and leave them.
Not making things worse is the first step to fixing anything.
EatTheRich
President
The tyrants (Pisistratus, e.g.) preceded democracy and made it possible.
C
Capitalist
Guest
And. . .Demosthenes? Phillip?
Any political oration going on between them in democratic fashion? Anything that would impact this discussion?
Come on, man.
EatTheRich
President
Neither Philip nor Alexander was voted into power.
C
Capitalist
Guest
You're avoiding the 8oo lb gorilla. Thanks. That's all anyone needs to know.
Emily
NSDAP Kanzler
I may turn that into a meme.
(I really hate the word "meme")
Most folks think that. Many including myself believe -- and much evidence supports -- that the "refugee crisis" was a planned and engineered consequence of our post-9/11 Mideast adventurism.
C
Capitalist
Guest
At the risk of sounding hyperbolic I’d say survival comes before “not making things worse.” The big war with the Middle East has been a long time coming. You could say Jefferson saw it coming when he fought the Barbary Coast. Not much has changed in that regard since then.I may turn that into a meme.
(I really hate the word "meme")
Most folks think that. Many including myself believe -- and much evidence supports -- that the "refugee crisis" was a planned and engineered consequence of our post-9/11 Mideast adventurism.
Sykes/Picot didn’t help and can be considered the real source of today’s conflict—from which all this descends. aQ has said as much in their videos and that may be the only thing they got right. None of which excuses their barbarism for the past several hundred years.
But even now I’m not ready to point the finger at the US. The refugee situation is more a result of Syria and its dictator than a result of our war with Iraq.
Spamature
President
Use it if you want.I may turn that into a meme.
(I really hate the word "meme")
Most folks think that. Many including myself believe -- and much evidence supports -- that the "refugee crisis" was a planned and engineered consequence of our post-9/11 Mideast adventurism.
I think it was blow back. The unexpected consequences of military adventurism. I think they thought they could transform the culture of the Middle East into an American style Democracy through the barrel of a gun.
Emily
NSDAP Kanzler
Good point.
That's true -- It was being discussed in the 70's and it was probably anticipated before then. However, if the US was simply at war with enemy states in the ME, it would have been out a long time ago. There's much more behind these protracted operations against states that never actually threatened the USA. Follow the money.
The Sykes-Picot Agreement created the fictitious ME states of today and stoked Arab resentment of the West, yes, but much has happened since: Israel, oil demand, Iranian revolution, Russian revolution, all and more have changed things greatly. Besides, if it's reasonable to suggest that the British & French were, at the time, foolish or short-sighted or arrogant, is it not also reasonable to suggest that they were devious or, perhaps, being used? Germany had the Great War won until the US entered; who got what in exchange for that?
Nor should anyone. Follow the money.
Syria's dictator is a moderate, pragmatic, and much-beloved ruler of a state that posed no threat to anyone (not even to Israel for the last 45 years). The "refugee situation" is a result of the West's adventures there and whatever/whoever is behind them.
That's how it's sold.
It took one year for the USA to defeat Imperial Japan (3 more before the Emperor admitted it to himself), while simultaneously prosecuting a war in Europe, and another year or so to transform it into an American-style Democracy. For how long now have we been "advancing Democracy" in the ME? Obama campaigned on getting the USA out of there. Why are we still there? Trump campaigned on getting us out of there. Why are we still there?
It ain't to "make the world safe for Democracy."
Queen Titania
Senator
Most of the 'refugees' coming this way are Africans.
Queen Titania
Senator
It is't just war - NGO's had out leaflets telling young me how to get here ad what to do when here.
C
Capitalist
Guest
Follow the money indeed!
Sykes-Picot was about keeping the oil flowing. Dividing up the ME rather arbitrarily while installing dictators beholden to the west would accomplish that. Dictators would be perpetually preoccupied with maintaining order inside their own borders while needing money to do so. They got the money from the oil to the west. Meanwhile, the people watch as the world around them develops nukes and advances greatly while they sit on a pile of gold they don't have access to but their dictators spend. It's enough to make anyone go jihad.
But the west could not tolerate a resurgent caliphate especially in an age of rising oil importance and nuclear power. Imagine, if you can, the last hundred years with a reborn caliphate controlling the oil of the Middle East, developing nukes, advancing, competing with, and maybe surpassing the West. Intolerable. And not because of our racism but because of our shared history. History shows the danger and bloodshed caused by a caliphate--a caliphate promised by T.E. Lawrence and denied by Sykes-Picot.
Much of what you mentioned leads back to Sykes-Picot. Israel. Just another thorn in the side of the Arab states--something to bitch about and fight over while the oil keeps flowing. A distraction while the oil keeps flowing. Yes, follow the money indeed!
The British and French weren't shortsighted by any means. They lied to the Middle East. So today, with 20/20 hindsight we need to ask which was worse, lying to prevent a caliphate, or keeping a promise and enduring a hundred years of a resurgent, virulent, driven, ambitious caliphate?
Don't think for a second jihad would be gone if Lawrence's promise of a caliphate was kept. It had been going on for centuries before and showed no sign of stopping. Jefferson dealt with it over 200 years ago on "the shores of Tripoli" and we would be dealing with it today had Sykes-Picot been more equitable for the ME.
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Emily
NSDAP Kanzler
In Mexico, they put up posters telling people how to get here and what do do when they get here.
There are simply too many fingers pointing to the whole thing -- 'refugees,' 'migrants,' all of it in Europe and the US -- being an engineered attempt at demographic genocide to deny it.
C
Capitalist
Guest
What a coincidence, huh? Europe has its refugee problem at, like, exactly the same time we have ours with Central America. I mean, what are the chances!
It’s almost as if they were. . .coordinated. Or something.
EatTheRich
President
They have a common cause ... the general crisis of the capitalist system.
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