America becoming more secular?

[JuliefromOhio]

New statistics from the Pew Research Center show that between 2007 and 2014, the number of Americans who identify as Christian dropped by nearly eight percentage points, from 78.4 % to 70.6 %.

The Christian share of the U.S. population is declining, while the number of U.S. adults who do not identify with any organized religion is growing, according to an extensive new survey by the Pew Research Center. Moreover, these changes are taking place across the religious landscape, affecting all regions of the country and many demographic groups. While the drop in Christian affiliation is particularly pronounced among young adults, it is occurring among Americans of all ages. The same trends are seen among whites, blacks and Latinos; among both college graduates and adults with only a high school education; and among women as well as men.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/

for those who like to think there's a war on Christianity, I'd say indifference is your enemy.

 

[Arkady]

New statistics from the Pew Research Center show that between 2007 and 2014, the number of Americans who identify as Christian dropped by nearly eight percentage points, from 78.4 % to 70.6 %.

The Christian share of the U.S. population is declining, while the number of U.S. adults who do not identify with any organized religion is growing, according to an extensive new survey by the Pew Research Center. Moreover, these changes are taking place across the religious landscape, affecting all regions of the country and many demographic groups. While the drop in Christian affiliation is particularly pronounced among young adults, it is occurring among Americans of all ages. The same trends are seen among whites, blacks and Latinos; among both college graduates and adults with only a high school education; and among women as well as men.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/

for those who like to think there's a war on Christianity, I'd say indifference is your enemy.

Other than when it comes to state-enforced atheism, the normal trend is for countries to become more secular as they become more educated and prosperous. Here's a map showing the results of a poll about how important poll respondents said religion was in their lives, by country:

Ignoring the communist and recently-communist nations where religion was actively suppressed by the state, there's a pretty clear trend. The richer and better educated the country, the more likely that religion isn't important there. Religion is most important in the dirt-poor parts of central Africa and southeast Asia where illiteracy is rampant.

You can see a similar trend even within countries. When countries have regions that are wealthier and better-educated, those tend to be the more secular parts. Here's the distribution for the US:

As you can see, religion is hugely important in the poor (and poorly educated) Deep South, but not in New England, where people are more prosperous and informed.

So, as the US grows more prosperous and better educated, I would expect a continued shift to secularism. If you think of religion as the opium of the people, this makes more sense. Opium is a pain killer. The more pain you're experiencing, the more likely you are to take it. Some will remain junkies even when the pain recedes, but the rates of abuse will gradually decline.

 

[as seen on tv]

i read this article yesterday too.

i'm surprised america is still "71% christian". as a secular person myself, it seems lower than that.

but then again, I associate with many other secular people, and this influences my judgement.

similarly, blacks routinely over estimate their share of the american population (as 30-50%) because they life in black neighborhoods in cities. The actual black population of america is in the 12-13% range, of course.

Two final thoughts about the "71% religious" data point

• lumping all religions together in that statistic ignores important variations in the intensity of those beliefs, and the "standards" which those various religions and sects hold their members to. The average protestant is different than the average evangelical who is diferent than the average catholic, who is different than the average jew . .. and most muslims are apparently more devout than anyone.
• By European standards, our "71%" is still quite a high number. Secularism has been on the rise there for decades. (exceptions possibly being italy and spain). Which is why radical islamists see it as fertile ground for conversion to Sharia - as populations abandon old beliefs they become more susceptible to a replacement ideology. This is why communism tried to outlaw religion, and replace it with political belief.

 

[as seen on tv]

Other than when it comes to state-enforced atheism, the normal trend is for countries to become more secular as they become more educated and prosperous. Here's a map showing the results of a poll about how important poll respondents said religion was in their lives, by country:

Ignoring the communist and recently-communist nations where religion was actively suppressed by the state, there's a pretty clear trend. The richer and better educated the country, the more likely that religion isn't important there. Religion is most important in the dirt-poor parts of central Africa and southeast Asia where illiteracy is rampant.

You can see an similar trend even within countries. When countries have regions that are wealthier and better-educated, those tend to be the more secular parts. Here's the distribution for the US:

As you can see, religion is hugely important in the poor (and poorly educated) Deep South, but not in New England, where people are more prosperous and informed.

So, as the US grows more prosperous and better educated, I would expect a continued shift to secularism. If you think of religion as the opium of the people, this makes more sense. Opium is a pain killer. The more pain you're experiencing, the more likely you are to take it. Some will remain junkies even when the pain recedes, but the rates of abuse will gradually decline.

does anyone else find it ironic that "new england", which was settled by pilgrims and puritans, is now the least religious part of the nation?

 

[Arkady]

does anyone else find it ironic that "new england", which was settled by pilgrims and puritans, is now the least religious part of the nation?

It's interesting, isn't it? I'm sure someone could do a great doctoral dissertation on how and when New England became less religious and the Deep South became more religious. Probably sometime around the Civil War. Up until then, New England was still a hotbed of religious extremism. The First Great Awakening was centered on New England, with people like Jonathan Edwards (sinners in the hands of an angry god) working in Massachusetts. The Second Great Awakening was also, to a significant degree, a New England phenomenon. William Miller (founder of the Millerites who gave birth to the Seventh-day Adventists) was from Massachusetts and much of that work was done in Boston and New Hampshire (though some also in New York). Lots of the religious abolitionists were headquartered in New England -- Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote "Uncle Tom's Cabin" in Maine.

Then, after the Civil War, religiosity seems to have started fading in New England.... and growing in the South (where it was probably a tempting refuge in a time of such turmoil). Where previously it had an anti-slavery flavor, in the South it developed an anti-black flavor, with religious movements like the KKK.

 

[Lukey]

And more libertarian:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/...ns-but-many-americans-have-libertarian-views/

http://reason.com/blog/2015/04/30/19-of-americans-self-identify-as-liberta

https://www.lp.org/blogs/daniel-wiener/poll-shows-america-is-becoming-more-libertarian

Hooray!!!

 

[fairsheet]

Other than when it comes to state-enforced atheism, the normal trend is for countries to become more secular as they become more educated and prosperous. Here's a map showing the results of a poll about how important poll respondents said religion was in their lives, by country:

Ignoring the communist and recently-communist nations where religion was actively suppressed by the state, there's a pretty clear trend. The richer and better educated the country, the more likely that religion isn't important there. Religion is most important in the dirt-poor parts of central Africa and southeast Asia where illiteracy is rampant.

You can see an similar trend even within countries. When countries have regions that are wealthier and better-educated, those tend to be the more secular parts. Here's the distribution for the US:

As you can see, religion is hugely important in the poor (and poorly educated) Deep South, but not in New England, where people are more prosperous and informed.

So, as the US grows more prosperous and better educated, I would expect a continued shift to secularism. If you think of religion as the opium of the people, this makes more sense. Opium is a pain killer. The more pain you're experiencing, the more likely you are to take it. Some will remain junkies even when the pain recedes, but the rates of abuse will gradually decline.

New statistics from the Pew Research Center show that between 2007 and 2014, the number of Americans who identify as Christian dropped by nearly eight percentage points, from 78.4 % to 70.6 %.

The Christian share of the U.S. population is declining, while the number of U.S. adults who do not identify with any organized religion is growing, according to an extensive new survey by the Pew Research Center. Moreover, these changes are taking place across the religious landscape, affecting all regions of the country and many demographic groups. While the drop in Christian affiliation is particularly pronounced among young adults, it is occurring among Americans of all ages. The same trends are seen among whites, blacks and Latinos; among both college graduates and adults with only a high school education; and among women as well as men.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/

for those who like to think there's a war on Christianity, I'd say indifference is your enemy.

Is "more secular" less than?....or greater than? I'm going to suggest that God's truth is universal. Therefore, the more a country incorporates his truth into its governance and everyday actions, the less need we have for an entity like a church, to help us reinforce that truth.

For instance, is Norway LESS religious than we are because they attend church less? Or, might it be that they're actually more evolved in terms of God's truth?

 

[JuliefromOhio]

i read this article yesterday too.

i'm surprised america is still "71% christian". as a secular person myself, it seems lower than that.

but then again, I associate with many other secular people, and this influences my judgement.

similarly, blacks routinely over estimate their share of the american population (as 30-50%) because they life in black neighborhoods in cities. The actual black population of america is in the 12-13% range, of course.

Two final thoughts about the "71% religious" data point

• lumping all religions together in that statistic ignores important variations in the intensity of those beliefs, and the "standards" which those various religions and sects hold their members to. The average protestant is different than the average evangelical who is diferent than the average catholic, who is different than the average jew . .. and most muslims are apparently more devout than anyone.
• By European standards, our "71%" is still quite a high number. Secularism has been on the rise there for decades. (exceptions possibly being italy and spain). Which is why radical islamists see it as fertile ground for conversion to Sharia - as populations abandon old beliefs they become more susceptible to a replacement ideology. This is why communism tried to outlaw religion, and replace it with political belief.

i'm surprised america is still "71% christian". as a secular person myself, it seems lower than that.

I agree and suspect it's because most of those "Christians" lie to the pollsters.

 

[Lukey]

Is "more secular" less than?....or greater than? I'm going to suggest that God's truth is universal. Therefore, the more a country incorporates his truth into its governance and everyday actions, the less need we have for an entity like a church, to help us reinforce that truth.

For instance, is Norway LESS religious than we are because they attend church less? Or, might it be that they're actually more evolved in terms of God's truth?

The church of big government progressivism? WTF???

 

[Arkady]

For instance, is Norway LESS religious than we are because they attend church less? Or, might it be that they're actually more evolved in terms of God's truth?

I guess that's an interesting way to look at it, but for me that leads down to what is probably going to come across as a more offensive way of framing it: religion is kind of like moral training wheels, and the more advanced a people get, the better able they are to function without it, and eventually it would just get in the way.

 

[connieb]

i read this article yesterday too.

i'm surprised america is still "71% christian". as a secular person myself, it seems lower than that.

but then again, I associate with many other secular people, and this influences my judgement.

similarly, blacks routinely over estimate their share of the american population (as 30-50%) because they life in black neighborhoods in cities. The actual black population of america is in the 12-13% range, of course.

Two final thoughts about the "71% religious" data point

• lumping all religions together in that statistic ignores important variations in the intensity of those beliefs, and the "standards" which those various religions and sects hold their members to. The average protestant is different than the average evangelical who is diferent than the average catholic, who is different than the average jew . .. and most muslims are apparently more devout than anyone.
• By European standards, our "71%" is still quite a high number. Secularism has been on the rise there for decades. (exceptions possibly being italy and spain). Which is why radical islamists see it as fertile ground for conversion to Sharia - as populations abandon old beliefs they become more susceptible to a replacement ideology. This is why communism tried to outlaw religion, and replace it with political belief.

It may also depend heavily on the way the questioning was asked. I was raised Christian, no longer attend church and don't "practice" any religion. I am not and do not ever foresee myself being affiliated with any church or religion again.

BUT - I do still celebrate Christmas and Easter, etc with my family but I focus more on the secular aspects - the easter bunny, Santa Claus -christmas tree, etc. I go through the motions of instilling judeo-christian values in my kids, etc. They go to church with my husband who is Catholic. To me my "heritage" is Christian. That is the values and morals I was raised with. But its not that I really believe in the Bible, or that the bible is the "word of God" or believe most of the stuff that is spewed in most Christian churches I have attended, etc.

So, depending on how those questions are asked - I answer differently.

 

[Arkady]

It may also depend heavily on the way the questioning was asked. I was raised Christian, no longer attend church and don't "practice" any religion. I am not and do not ever foresee myself being affiliated with any church or religion again.

BUT - I do still celebrate Christmas and Easter, etc with my family but I focus more on the secular aspects - the easter bunny, Santa Claus -christmas tree, etc. I go through the motions of instilling judeo-christian values in my kids, etc. They go to church with my husband who is Catholic. To me my "heritage" is Christian. That is the values and morals I was raised with. But its not that I really believe in the Bible, or that the bible is the "word of God" or believe most of the stuff that is spewed in most Christian churches I have attended, etc.

So, depending on how those questions are asked - I answer differently.

I also was raised Christian and still celebrate Christmas and Easter, while focusing on the secular aspects. I do not, however, want to instill Judeo-Christian values in my kid. I'm not even clear on what that would mean. What are Judeo-Christian values, exactly?

I certainly admire some values that appear to be common among Jews and Christians in this country (these days), but the faith traditions strike me as an indecipherable mish-mash of humane notions and horrifying depravity. The Judeo-Christian God's own biography involves him going door to door murdering children (the Passover), and that wasn't even his moral low point -- he once drown very nearly every man, woman, child, and animal on the planet, in an epic temper tantrum. He also ordered his followers to commit genocide. I wouldn't want my daughter embracing such values.

I also wouldn't want her building the castle of her moral principles on the sands of superstition. If she behaves in a desirable manner but only because she imagines she'll be rewarded for it by an invisible man in the sky, that's a pretty shaky basis for conduct. She might as easily fly a plane into a building full of people if she came to imagine that's what the invisible man would reward. I want her moral basis to be sturdier than religion can provide.

 

[JuliefromOhio]

And more libertarian:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/...ns-but-many-americans-have-libertarian-views/

http://reason.com/blog/2015/04/30/19-of-americans-self-identify-as-liberta

https://www.lp.org/blogs/daniel-wiener/poll-shows-america-is-becoming-more-libertarian

Hooray!!!

Ayn Rand was an atheist.

 

[fairsheet]

I guess that's an interesting way to look at it, but for me that leads down to what is probably going to come across as a more offensive way of framing it: religion is kind of like moral training wheels, and the more advanced a people get, the better able they are to function without it, and eventually it would just get in the way.

As per usual, I couldn't have put it better myself. Yours is pretty much exactly what I'm suggesting!

 

[Lukey]

I guess that's an interesting way to look at it, but for me that leads down to what is probably going to come across as a more offensive way of framing it: religion is kind of like moral training wheels, and the more advanced a people get, the better able they are to function without it, and eventually it would just get in the way.

Kind of like you think the dictatorship of the proletariat is simply "training wheels" to government being able to eventually fade away and grant ownership of the means of production to the workers under complete and full communism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering_away_of_the_state

 

[Arkady]

Kind of like you think the dictatorship of the proletariat is simply "training wheels" to government being able to eventually fade away and grant ownership of the means of production to the workers under complete and full communism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering_away_of_the_state

No. That would be the communist view. As you know, I'm more of a capitalist than a socialist, much less a communist.

 

[RickWA]

As per usual, I couldn't have put it better myself. Yours is pretty much exactly what I'm suggesting!

I couldn't agree less. As people continue to blur the lines of public and private agency, we set the stage for profound moral abomination.

This is much like those who conflate the spirit and the flesh - in fact, it is exactly derivative.

 

[fairsheet]

I couldn't agree less. As people continue to blur the lines of public and private agency, we set the stage for profound moral abomination.

This is much like those who conflate the spirit and the flesh - in fact, it is exactly derivative.

Coupla things: First, we need to agree on a definition for "moral abomination". Does it go acts contrary to the dogma of a specific faith perspective, OR does it go acts contrary to God's Truth? And, just as with HYPERINFLATION!....just because some see a stage being set, it doesn't necessarily follow that the show will open.

The objective and imperical evidence suggests to ME, that we're evolving inexorably towards ever-ehanced morality.

 

[RickWA]

Coupla things: First, we need to agree on a definition for "moral abomination". Does it go acts contrary to the dogma of a specific faith perspective, OR does it go acts contrary to God's Truth? And, just as with HYPERINFLATION!....just because some see a stage being set, it doesn't necessarily follow that the show will open.

The objective and imperical evidence suggests to ME, that we're evolving inexorably towards ever-ehanced morality.

Interesting. So as the church is conflated with the state - both in mission and membership - you see no blending of creator and creation? It's as plain as day to me...

I understand you to be a Christian (of catholic bent as I recall). Do you rely on the Bible as authoritative and instructive? Just curious - it's entirely possible that I'm remembering incorrectly (stranger things have happened)

 

[fairsheet]

Interesting. So as the church is conflated with the state - both in mission and membership - you see no blending of creator and creation? It's as plain as day to me...

I understand you to be a Christian (of catholic bent as I recall). Do you rely on the Bible as authoritative and instructive? Just curious - it's entirely possible that I'm remembering incorrectly (stranger things have happened)

I can't say as I can understand what the hell you're talking about here.