New Posts
  • Hi there guest! Welcome to PoliticalJack.com. Register for free to join our community?

GOP is right when they say Military can handle the Sequester!

Our militray is scattered all over the world. According to Politifacts we have military in 148 countries and stationed in 900 bases out side of the USA. We have over 77 thousand troops in Europe alone. Over 52 thousand in Germany. That doesn't include all of the civilian contracted personnel. Now I know we need some bases to be able to move our military and their equipment to hotspots all over the globe, but 900 bases in 148 countries. And why that many bases and personnel in Europe alone? I think we need to cut more out of the military budget so that we can force them to close the unnecessary bases and bring many of our troops home. Now I have served in the military and am from a military family. MY dad and four from my immediate family are retired military and all my brothers and sisters have served, so I am not anti-military. But I have thought for years we have too many unnecessary bases and the cost of keeping each base adds to our deficit. So, I am not worried about our military suffering from the sequester and only wish it would force our military to take a frank look at reducing the number of bases and personnel serving the bases throughout the world to those we have to have. It would go a long way to making our military more cost effective.
 
Yep, Wis.. the military is the one part of the sequester i don't mind.

We outspend the next 11-17 countries (depending on the means of measurement) COMBINED?

ENOUGH of being ridiculous.
 
Indeed, 650-700bn plus per annum is absurd. We have Canada to the north, Mexico to the south and large bodies of water in between us and any entity that would even have a shot. Plus, nukes.

But, given that cuts are happening, the resulting military committments should be redefined. Let's not try to do the same, just with less, that's a losing proposition.
 
Indeed, 650-700bn plus per annum is absurd. We have Canada to the north, Mexico to the south and large bodies of water in between us and any entity that would even have a shot. Plus, nukes.

But, given that cuts are happening, the resulting military committments should be redefined. Let's not try to do the same, just with less, that's a losing proposition.
I agree; as long as we get back to the idea that the mission of our military forces is to defend our land, we could cut the military way back. How many countries, (or even a coalition of countries), have the capability of projecting combat power to our shores? Maybe China? And after the rest of the world has been watching us fight a counter-insurgency in 2 different countries, (and taking notes), I guarantee there isn't a military anywhere in the world that thinks fighting one against us is a good idea. So, with that in mind, why do we need such a large military? At least the ground forces could be cut...
 
The problem is that they are across-the-board cuts. Miiltary bases and programs that we really need will be cut.
 
The problem is that they are across-the-board cuts. Miiltary bases and programs that we really need will be cut.

There's no free lunch, something has to give.

Cinch your belt, make do. That's basically what the government tells you when they ask for the money to fund this crap.
 
I agree; as long as we get back to the idea that the mission of our military forces is to defend our land, we could cut the military way back. How many countries, (or even a coalition of countries), have the capability of projecting combat power to our shores? Maybe China? And after the rest of the world has been watching us fight a counter-insurgency in 2 different countries, (and taking notes), I guarantee there isn't a military anywhere in the world that thinks fighting one against us is a good idea. So, with that in mind, why do we need such a large military? At least the ground forces could be cut...

I agree with most of your post, however, I emphatically disagree with your last sentence: "At least the ground forces could be cut..."

We can bomb an adversary into the stone age, but it takes ground forces to hold and control territory. Good examples would be Iraq and Afghanistan. Due to lack of troops, some have pulled four or five tours in these hell-holes.

I served twenty years in the Air Force and readily agree that the Department of Defense's budget could be cut in many places without affecting our defense capability. It is ridiculous that we spend $283 MILLION dollars for a B-1 bomber. I know the aircraft manufacturers furnish employment for many people, but I think we could cut back and let attrition reduce the total bill for some of our "toys."
 
Our militray is scattered all over the world. According to Politifacts we have military in 148 countries and stationed in 900 bases out side of the USA. We have over 77 thousand troops in Europe alone. Over 52 thousand in Germany. That doesn't include all of the civilian contracted personnel. Now I know we need some bases to be able to move our military and their equipment to hotspots all over the globe, but 900 bases in 148 countries. And why that many bases and personnel in Europe alone? I think we need to cut more out of the military budget so that we can force them to close the unnecessary bases and bring many of our troops home. Now I have served in the military and am from a military family. MY dad and four from my immediate family are retired military and all my brothers and sisters have served, so I am not anti-military. But I have thought for years we have too many unnecessary bases and the cost of keeping each base adds to our deficit. So, I am not worried about our military suffering from the sequester and only wish it would force our military to take a frank look at reducing the number of bases and personnel serving the bases throughout the world to those we have to have. It would go a long way to making our military more cost effective.

Considering the still on-going effects following 9-11-01, where an attack which killed 2,977 people, inclusive of the 19 hijackers that perpetrated the events that caused the deaths (2,402 Americans were killed in the Pearl Harbor attack) used no military weaponry and none of their own weapons, aside from matt knives. I'm not sure why we're spending 700 billion dollars or nearly five time more than the next largest spender on military defense.

Eisenhower, the last president this nation has had with a military career background and supreme commander of allied forces during the last greatest war, put the pitfalls of obsessive spending and escalation of weapons of war quite succinctly.

http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/speeches/ike_chance_for_peace.html

The Soviet Union is no more and it would appear the U.S., instead of heeding Eisenhower's warning in his farewell speech about the military–industrial complex, it would appear he was ignored and some in the U.S. decided instead to pick up where the Soviet Union left off or found a portion of its downfall.

The trouble for the neo-republicans will be distancing themselves from the military spending results based on the stated principles of the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) http://www.newamericancentury.org/ as well as an ingrained perception (real or not) that the new (neo) republicans became the party of growing the U.S. military to use as a tool to assert its interests around the world. Somewhat ironic considering the basis of fears of the activities of Soviet Union from WWII through Reagan's reign.

We as a nation, appear to run into problems when instead of resisting and stopping the ability of some to create things like WMD or assert their politics upon other nations, we take the things we fear, like Germany's ability to produce a nuclear (atomic) weapon during WWII or the Soviet Union using its military to annex other nations or create satellite nations from existing ones in its own interest, we have adopted what we fear from others and use them for our own interest. In some cases we have used them or use them in ways others find as fearful or offensive to them as Americans felt about or would feel about the same being asserted or used against America.

There will always be people who hate with no basis in reality for their hate, who will use violence against those they perceive should be hated, but any nation can work to reduce attacks against them and thus reasons to defend themselves, by doing less to antagonize and provide the same sorts of justifications they make to use force against others, to others.

The Golden Rule does not say do unto others as they have done unto you, it says do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Leadership is not about following others, but setting the example.

"She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom."

"The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force...."

"She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit...."

"[America’s] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice."


-John Quincy Adams - Speech to the U.S. House of Representatives on Foreign Policy (July 4, 1821)




There are thresholds and saturation points for many things. While there is a strong argument for a strong defense, there is a level, a threshold and saturation point to where "strong" mixed with a lack of care for appication of strength and use of military force can cross the line from being defensive to offensive, especially for those on the receiving end. Self-righteousness can arise from past success, but past success is no warranty of future success, especially if one lets themselves to be lulled into the pitfalls of vanity and the notion that past successes automatically mean future success or that perpetual purity comes from any past purity. While we may think of ourselves as the greatest nation on earth, in reality, we may not be or the world no longer sees us that way, ironically in part because we may have felt we didn't have to actually do things to maintain that status, aside from believe we were great, perhaps thinking mere belief in one's greatness makes them great without having to provide evidence for the same by their actions.

We may very well remain the greatest nation on earth by all accounts, but my believing it is so, does not make it so. A manufacturer that denies a need for regular review, maintenance and quality control is likely not long for this world. Deluding one's self to the point they refuse to acknowledge any faults would also seem to be cause for some serious long term survival problems. I'm not sure how it would be different for nations.
 
I agree with most of your post, however, I emphatically disagree with your last sentence: "At least the ground forces could be cut..."

We can bomb an adversary into the stone age, but it takes ground forces to hold and control territory. Good examples would be Iraq and Afghanistan. Due to lack of troops, some have pulled four or five tours in these hell-holes.

I served twenty years in the Air Force and readily agree that the Department of Defense's budget could be cut in many places without affecting our defense capability. It is ridiculous that we spend $283 MILLION dollars for a B-1 bomber. I know the aircraft manufacturers furnish employment for many people, but I think we could cut back and let attrition reduce the total bill for some of our "toys."
My point was that if what we are trying to do is defend land we already occupy, then we can do it with a lot less regular troops; we don't have to take it, we're there already. No professional military man is going to look at all the trouble we have had in Iraq and Afghanistan, and say "hey, lets go and get into the same kind of shitfight with the Americans"; we are the most heavily armed and one of the most violent civilian populations on earth. I just don't think anyone is lining up for that fight.
 
Our militray is scattered all over the world. According to Politifacts we have military in 148 countries and stationed in 900 bases out side of the USA. We have over 77 thousand troops in Europe alone. Over 52 thousand in Germany. That doesn't include all of the civilian contracted personnel. Now I know we need some bases to be able to move our military and their equipment to hotspots all over the globe, but 900 bases in 148 countries. And why that many bases and personnel in Europe alone? I think we need to cut more out of the military budget so that we can force them to close the unnecessary bases and bring many of our troops home. Now I have served in the military and am from a military family. MY dad and four from my immediate family are retired military and all my brothers and sisters have served, so I am not anti-military. But I have thought for years we have too many unnecessary bases and the cost of keeping each base adds to our deficit. So, I am not worried about our military suffering from the sequester and only wish it would force our military to take a frank look at reducing the number of bases and personnel serving the bases throughout the world to those we have to have. It would go a long way to making our military more cost effective.

We could cut military spending in half and still outspend all our potential adversaries COMBINED.
 
We could pull out of Afghanistan and scale back the presence in a few others for start.

And yet we can't even defend the southern border.

Our own government doesn't want it defended evidently. They like anchor babies.
 
If the sequestration law allowed the Pentagon to manage the cuts, so that one program could be cut, but another more valuable program could be preserved, it could probably lead to some actual and productive budget changes within the military.

The law doesn't allow that. It requires an across the board cut. So instead of cutting two F-35 aircraft out of the production stream, and using the price of one of them to finish a missilie destroyer for the Navy, both programs are left in place, and both are cut by the same percentage amount. No bases close, no programs end -- in one of the few clinically accurate statements he's ever made, the president referred to this as a "meat cleaver approach."

I work for the Army, and what sequestration means to me is a $6000 pay cut over the next seven months, and two days off each pay period. That means I'll do without some things, but I've been lots poorer in the past than I am today, and I'll be OK.

But I'm glad I'm not, just for example, runing a flight line training helicopter pilots. If their operations have been affected as mine have over the past five years, they've seen four consecutive budget decrements. Maintenance is usually done by a combined staff with a small military cadre, a few government civilians, and a lot of contractors. The contract force has already been cut, and most temporary government employees have been released. Now the remainder will be furloughed two days a week -- but the training mission hasn't been cut at all. This merely means the remaining military staff will work longer hours just keeping the helicopters in the air. The civilians (many of whom are veterans) will help, of course, but they get to work only four days a week for a public that apparently doesn't care if they work at all.

That's setting aside the programs that will effectively stall. These cuts are going to do actual damage to our ability to defend our own country. Go ahead, applaud them.
 
If the sequestration law allowed the Pentagon to manage the cuts, so that one program could be cut, but another more valuable program could be preserved, it could probably lead to some actual and productive budget changes within the military.

The law doesn't allow that. It requires an across the board cut. So instead of cutting two F-35 aircraft out of the production stream, and using the price of one of them to finish a missilie destroyer for the Navy, both programs are left in place, and both are cut by the same percentage amount. No bases close, no programs end -- in one of the few clinically accurate statements he's ever made, the president referred to this as a "meat cleaver approach."

I work for the Army, and what sequestration means to me is a $6000 pay cut over the next seven months, and two days off each pay period. That means I'll do without some things, but I've been lots poorer in the past than I am today, and I'll be OK.

But I'm glad I'm not, just for example, runing a flight line training helicopter pilots. If their operations have been affected as mine have over the past five years, they've seen four consecutive budget decrements. Maintenance is usually done by a combined staff with a small military cadre, a few government civilians, and a lot of contractors. The contract force has already been cut, and most temporary government employees have been released. Now the remainder will be furloughed two days a week -- but the training mission hasn't been cut at all. This merely means the remaining military staff will work longer hours just keeping the helicopters in the air. The civilians (many of whom are veterans) will help, of course, but they get to work only four days a week for a public that apparently doesn't care if they work at all.

That's setting aside the programs that will effectively stall. These cuts are going to do actual damage to our ability to defend our own country. Go ahead, applaud them.
You're right trapdoor, the way these cuts are being done is asinine; I do think we can cut back, but it needs to be thought out and planned.
 
The other thing is that there are closing costs. Say you shut down the troop presence in Korea totally (an arguably do-able thing).

I don't know what the entire cost of our presence in Korea is, right now today, but it would effectively double for a couple of years as the real estate specialists would handle the property, the expense of moving both troops and civilians back to the U.S. is borne, etc. Now, this is a one-time expense in the name of a long-term savings, but that one-time expense still must be paid.
 
My point was that if what we are trying to do is defend land we already occupy, then we can do it with a lot less regular troops; we don't have to take it, we're there already. No professional military man is going to look at all the trouble we have had in Iraq and Afghanistan, and say "hey, lets go and get into the same kind of shitfight with the Americans"; we are the most heavily armed and one of the most violent civilian populations on earth. I just don't think anyone is lining up for that fight.

You have some valid points. However, it is not just a matter of holding already occupied territory. The territory has to be taken before it is occupied. In the Afghan and Iraq situations what was, according to Generalissimo George W. Bush and Fieldmarshal Donald Rumsfeld to be a "Shock and Awe" takeover in two weeks is still continuing. All the brown nosing Generals on the Joint Chiefs of Staff (except one) agreed that 250 thousand troops could do the job. General Shenseki told Congress that it would take 500 thousand troops. He was fired.

The "shock and awe" is continuing, but being wound down. The number of divorces and suicides cause by this fiasco which required multiple tours into these combat zones can be attributed to the lack of troops to perform these duties.

There is no substitute for BOOTS ON THE GROUND! (Damn, as a former Air Force man, I hate to admit that!)
 
Yes the President has said time and time again...Cuts are necessary...But the sequester cuts are stupid and unproductive....I think he really believed the Republican house would try to avoid this...But they did not, now the Military is being forced to cut whether it is needed or not
 
Yes the President has said time and time again...Cuts are necessary...But the sequester cuts are stupid and unproductive....I think he really believed the Republican house would try to avoid this...But they did not, now the Military is being forced to cut whether it is needed or not

I think this is seen as a Republican "anti Obama" action and will cost them in future elections. Hope so, anyway.
 
The problem for the time being, small but important social services are being impacted...the military is being forced to make cuts across the board that are counter productive....I guess the President can be accused of being naive as to how far these Right Wing ideologues would go to thwart anything he does...no matter how detrimental to the nation
 
Back
Top