in a nutshell
- Thread starter WhistleBlower
- Start date
WhistleBlower
Council Member
from my perspective, little has changed in the ritualized dominance behaviors of humans since we started writing things down except the tools of killing and environmental modification have become much more sophisticated and powerful, enabling fewer people to control more two-legged chattel with less energy expenditure. big difference between hurling molotovs and nukes, too, if the PTB think they need to thin the herd a bit..
frankly, until the grip of the old families and their corporation's control of all policies and procedures related to the extraction, refinement, manufacture and distribution of the world's resources is broken somehow, i can't see any change in the way things work or the caliber of people making the decisions for anything else unless the earth itself forces something with a cataclysmic event that disrupts the C-cubed-I and all the supply chains or the ancient prophesies are fulfilled and the immortals return to set us all straight.
this past year, millions of people all over the world have come out, mostly non-violently, in solidarity opposing the financial injustice and warmongering of the banker gangsters. several governments have fallen. will they be replaced with something better or worse?
i've been on the US government's dissident list since about 1970. the people i associate with believe in the system itself and that it has been suborned by criminals. i'm a chicago boy from the dick daley era and i know that working with rather than against city hall is the way to go and to always do it non-violently.
i think that if enough people stand in unity there can be prosecution of the warmongers and a massive overhaul of the government working within the existing infrastructure to make the arrests.
don't ask me how. i already put that question to all of you. i see the call to do it so i'm asking how do you go about replacing the executive, legislative and judicial branches all at once down to the level of agency directors, put them on trial for treason and other crimes and misdemeanors, replacing them with no disruption of the essential services of the government?
perhaps an even more pertinent question is just what are those essential services, anyway?
frankly, until the grip of the old families and their corporation's control of all policies and procedures related to the extraction, refinement, manufacture and distribution of the world's resources is broken somehow, i can't see any change in the way things work or the caliber of people making the decisions for anything else unless the earth itself forces something with a cataclysmic event that disrupts the C-cubed-I and all the supply chains or the ancient prophesies are fulfilled and the immortals return to set us all straight.
this past year, millions of people all over the world have come out, mostly non-violently, in solidarity opposing the financial injustice and warmongering of the banker gangsters. several governments have fallen. will they be replaced with something better or worse?
i've been on the US government's dissident list since about 1970. the people i associate with believe in the system itself and that it has been suborned by criminals. i'm a chicago boy from the dick daley era and i know that working with rather than against city hall is the way to go and to always do it non-violently.
i think that if enough people stand in unity there can be prosecution of the warmongers and a massive overhaul of the government working within the existing infrastructure to make the arrests.
don't ask me how. i already put that question to all of you. i see the call to do it so i'm asking how do you go about replacing the executive, legislative and judicial branches all at once down to the level of agency directors, put them on trial for treason and other crimes and misdemeanors, replacing them with no disruption of the essential services of the government?
perhaps an even more pertinent question is just what are those essential services, anyway?
tobaccoroad
Mayor
George Soros. Living proof that only the good die young. There's a photograph of George out there, seated on the bottom stairs of a staircase in a San Francisco mansion, next to Obama's left knee as the ObaMessiah announces his candidacy for president of the United States. There's also a companion photograph of the same event, taken outside the mansion, showing an army of valets in Tuxes hustling to park all the cars of the rich Californians who showed up at the San Francisco mansion to hear the Kenyan imposter speak. Soros' money, the journolist, and mediamatters paved the way, the only catch was, he had to perform when he got there.
http://weaselzippers.us/2012/06/22/...ssion-of-the-u-s-economy-since-taking-office/
Yuri Zhivago
Mayor
how old are you?
For once your lying brain raped Maoist delusions may have a smidgen of proof
And he failed to perform, didn't he.....OOOPS
Nut, Nutcase, Nutty, etc and their many synonyms such as Liberal, Democrat, Lefty, etc have become pervasive in the American lexicon, especially since the rise of Barack Obama. But I am reminded of the American General McAuliff, at the Battle of Bastogne in WW II, who issued the reply NUTS to the German demand to surrender. Most younger folks these days do not understand the meaning of that response. I recall, however, how the term was used back in the day. Aw, Nuts to that, was often used to register disagreement with something someone had said or wanted to do.
It would still be appropriate today in some instances. Ie: Someone suggests that Barack Obama has done a good job pretending to be president and that he deserves to be reelected. AW....NUTS TO THAT.
It would still be appropriate today in some instances. Ie: Someone suggests that Barack Obama has done a good job pretending to be president and that he deserves to be reelected. AW....NUTS TO THAT.
worldlymrb
Daddy
No you don't. You love fascism!
I use the swastika with the green background to bring public awareness to the threat of environmental fascism that is being used to promote a totalitarian/eugenic agenda in the name of saving the planet.
imreallyperplexed
Council Member
I think that you are replying to me. I have three comments.
First, I will repeat that you seem to have observed symptoms and made a diagnosis (i.e. identified the causes of the symptoms observed). However, you don't seem to have many ideas about how to "cure" things. If you don't have ideas, why would you expect anyone else to have ideas?
Second, even if everyone had ideas, do you think that they would agree? The evidence from PJ is that people disagree. And they can sometimes be nasty about it.
Third, I am curious if you would add overpopulation to your list of problems (war, ecological disasters, etc.)? I'd be curious to know your thoughts on that.
Fourth, did you see MrB's explanation of why he used a swastika in a green flag in his response to Yuri above? I gather that he was trying to highlight the tyranny of the eco-facists who (I think) he considers a part of the "socialist control grid." Do you agree with MrB that environmental activists are eco-fascists?
First, I will repeat that you seem to have observed symptoms and made a diagnosis (i.e. identified the causes of the symptoms observed). However, you don't seem to have many ideas about how to "cure" things. If you don't have ideas, why would you expect anyone else to have ideas?
Second, even if everyone had ideas, do you think that they would agree? The evidence from PJ is that people disagree. And they can sometimes be nasty about it.
Third, I am curious if you would add overpopulation to your list of problems (war, ecological disasters, etc.)? I'd be curious to know your thoughts on that.
Fourth, did you see MrB's explanation of why he used a swastika in a green flag in his response to Yuri above? I gather that he was trying to highlight the tyranny of the eco-facists who (I think) he considers a part of the "socialist control grid." Do you agree with MrB that environmental activists are eco-fascists?
imreallyperplexed
Council Member
I am a bit skeptical about calls to "clean house" as well. I am all for reform and adaptation. In any case, I get a sense (and I might be wrong about this) that WB has a beef with human civilization and technological growth. He doesn't seem to like the trajectory of human history.
WhistleBlower
Council Member
i think that if you were to look at the history of armed insurrection, you will see that what came next was most often as bad or worse than what it replaced.
WhistleBlower
Council Member
really? so you're saying the flag represents something that you're opposed to rather than support?
i can embrace your concerns about environmental fascism, totalitarianism and eugenics.
i can embrace your concerns about environmental fascism, totalitarianism and eugenics.
WhistleBlower
Council Member
i see what needs to be done but completely lack the ability to make any of it happen.
the us government needs a big housecleaning with all the bushwhackers from poppy bush on down arrested and put on trial for their crimes against humanity and nature.
there needs to be a global moratorium on things like nuclear, giant hydro, deep water drilling, fracking, mountain top removal and other invasive technologies that have the potential to trigger catastrophic climatic events or cause pandemics of deteriorative diseases.
of course people are going to disagree. put 20 people in a room and poll them and you'll end up with 30 opinions. the magic of good governance is for the representatives to find solutions that do the greatest good for the greatest number while imposing limitations on the liberties of the fewest people. finding the ideal compromise takes a lot of wisdom and cooperation that is woefully lacking in our legislatures today because of the pervasive influence of PAC money.
overpopulation isn't the problem. it's the density of the population that exists within 50 miles of the coasts and inland waterways that is the problem. if people spread out more or stacked tighter, taller and deeper vertically, inhabiting less of the land that is the most fertile and the wealth were distributed more fairly, i don't think we're anywhere near the carrying capacity of the planet.
paoli soleri proposed some very interesting solutions for high density urban centers with much smaller footprints that minimize environmental impact that are collected in a work called 'arcology'.
i did see mrb's 'mission statement' and can definitely relate. we call those guys high holy hippiecrates and tie-dyed tyrants in my circles.
'
' i'm a puddle jumper looking for the safest, most reasonable high ground, dead nuts in the middle on most issues. i've been around dissident politics for the past 40 years. though i will give some conspiracy complaints more time than they deserve, i try to stay objective and will be trying to shoot down as many as i'm propping up.
my break point with groupthink comes when there are plans for violent civil disobedience or when there's too much demand for unquestioning obedience to a leader or principles.
WhistleBlower
Council Member
my beef is with the tyranny of imperialism imposed by plutocratic oligarchs generation after generation. little has changed in 5000 years as you will be able to see from this link:
http://www.mapsofwar.com
as somebody who studied and worked in biological engineering, i am very concerned about certain technologies and know that many much less invasive technologies have been suppressed in favor of the invasive ones, most often because they present a source for energy resources that the masses can obtain for themselves without plugging in to the grid, driving up to the pump or swiping a credit card.
well over half the people now believe that there was a conspiracy who killed JFK. george bush the elder has been placed at the scene, but to my knowledge, has never given any deposition as to what he was doing there that day. his son and some of his associates have been convicted in absentia for war crimes by world courts -- there is even a town in vermont that has declared their intent to arrest him if he sets foot there.
there are calls to impeach obama and all of congress for their shenanigans of the past few years.
i'll ask again: if it it needs to be done, how do we go about doing it?
LeRoy_Was_Here
Senator
WorldyMrB: In a nutshell, we are under a corporate dictatorship by a offshore banking cartel, who seized our Republic with their unlimited credit.
LeRoy: Where is this putative 'offshore banking cartel' headquartered?
LeRoy: Where is this putative 'offshore banking cartel' headquartered?
imreallyperplexed
Council Member
WB,
I find you more interesting (and comprehensible) when you actually share your agenda. Here is what I think based on our discussion.
First, it seems to me that you can list a lot of symptoms of what you consider to be an "unhealthy civilization" and that you have a diagnosis of the causes of those symptoms (and a prognosis for what is likely to happen if a treatment is not administered). You also don't seem to think that you can (or want to) "impose" your solution on other people. I think that you would like to persuade folks but you tend to try to persuade through indirection (by posing problems and not offering solutions.) That is fine. It is a legitimate strategy.
Second, you sound like you do not like governments or bureaucrats. (I can sympathize with that.) But I am guessing that you do like "communities." In my experience, I have met folks that I would call "anarchist communists" who think that communities thrive without the state and that the state and the large corporations that serve the state promote war and exploitation. I am guessing that you would like to dismantle the system of states around the globe (not just the U.S.) and large multinational corporations (which are all part of the military-industrial complex). In fact, this vision has a lot of resonance with me personally. But I am skeptical that it is a practical vision. But that is fine. I did look up Paolo Soleri and he looks as if he has some interesting ideas. For the sake of other folks, here is an interesting link:
http://www.arcosanti.org/project/background/soleri/main.html
Third, my main practical concern is how any solution "scales up" to a global scale. There are lots of problems. For example, I take your point about "overpopulation." Nevertheless, I don't think that a world in which all people lived a standard consumerist American lifestyle is sustainable given the earth's carrying capacity. I do think that both lifestyle and income distribution would have to change dramatically to achieve what I take to be your vision. Furthermore, you seem to want these changes to occur without bureaucracy (hippiecrats) and without violence. I am very skeptical that that is achievable. (BTW, I do assume that you think that at some point, population growth would be a problem and would favor a more sustainable balance of births and deaths.)
I find you more interesting (and comprehensible) when you actually share your agenda. Here is what I think based on our discussion.
First, it seems to me that you can list a lot of symptoms of what you consider to be an "unhealthy civilization" and that you have a diagnosis of the causes of those symptoms (and a prognosis for what is likely to happen if a treatment is not administered). You also don't seem to think that you can (or want to) "impose" your solution on other people. I think that you would like to persuade folks but you tend to try to persuade through indirection (by posing problems and not offering solutions.) That is fine. It is a legitimate strategy.
Second, you sound like you do not like governments or bureaucrats. (I can sympathize with that.) But I am guessing that you do like "communities." In my experience, I have met folks that I would call "anarchist communists" who think that communities thrive without the state and that the state and the large corporations that serve the state promote war and exploitation. I am guessing that you would like to dismantle the system of states around the globe (not just the U.S.) and large multinational corporations (which are all part of the military-industrial complex). In fact, this vision has a lot of resonance with me personally. But I am skeptical that it is a practical vision. But that is fine. I did look up Paolo Soleri and he looks as if he has some interesting ideas. For the sake of other folks, here is an interesting link:
http://www.arcosanti.org/project/background/soleri/main.html
Third, my main practical concern is how any solution "scales up" to a global scale. There are lots of problems. For example, I take your point about "overpopulation." Nevertheless, I don't think that a world in which all people lived a standard consumerist American lifestyle is sustainable given the earth's carrying capacity. I do think that both lifestyle and income distribution would have to change dramatically to achieve what I take to be your vision. Furthermore, you seem to want these changes to occur without bureaucracy (hippiecrats) and without violence. I am very skeptical that that is achievable. (BTW, I do assume that you think that at some point, population growth would be a problem and would favor a more sustainable balance of births and deaths.)
WhistleBlower
Council Member
agenda? lol! i've been winging it day to day all my life. i was confident of the way things looked to me when i was a kid. ike and jfk were promising us the oceans and outer space and we never did it. we got bushwhacked and have been fighting dirty little bush wars ever since.
i have no problem with our government if it is going to be run the way it was designed by honest, reliable people. i would like to see arbitrary boundaries mean less and most of the actual governance concentrated at the local level with a more coherent global federation of nations.
i grew up in an extended family situation in an urban neighborhood of extended families. governance began at the precinct level with precinct captains working up through the alderman and ward party committee. i support that and am helping advocate for geographic representation in austin instead of the non-localized council seats they have now. my experience with anarchic communities has been mostly unpleasant, most often because it's either total chaos or it's really just a bunch of devotees following a guru.
our cities are parasites and they're not sustainable even at ZPG configured the way they are, where they are. i'm afraid that it's going to take a climatic catastrophe to change any of that. i also believe that if we had stayed the course eisenhower and kennedy tried to lay, we would have people living under the ocean and in outer space by now. instead we have deep undersea wells that humans can't maintain because no environment was built for them and a few guys hanging out in a tin can that they can barely keep supplied.
if we expand into previously uninhabitable environments and reduce our pressure on the highly productive land water interfaces, using them to produce biomass for conversion to fuels and durable goods instead, i don't think there is an upper limit to human population and that we don't really need to concern ourselves with it until it reaches at least 30 billion, maybe even 50.
i have no problem with our government if it is going to be run the way it was designed by honest, reliable people. i would like to see arbitrary boundaries mean less and most of the actual governance concentrated at the local level with a more coherent global federation of nations.
i grew up in an extended family situation in an urban neighborhood of extended families. governance began at the precinct level with precinct captains working up through the alderman and ward party committee. i support that and am helping advocate for geographic representation in austin instead of the non-localized council seats they have now. my experience with anarchic communities has been mostly unpleasant, most often because it's either total chaos or it's really just a bunch of devotees following a guru.
our cities are parasites and they're not sustainable even at ZPG configured the way they are, where they are. i'm afraid that it's going to take a climatic catastrophe to change any of that. i also believe that if we had stayed the course eisenhower and kennedy tried to lay, we would have people living under the ocean and in outer space by now. instead we have deep undersea wells that humans can't maintain because no environment was built for them and a few guys hanging out in a tin can that they can barely keep supplied.
if we expand into previously uninhabitable environments and reduce our pressure on the highly productive land water interfaces, using them to produce biomass for conversion to fuels and durable goods instead, i don't think there is an upper limit to human population and that we don't really need to concern ourselves with it until it reaches at least 30 billion, maybe even 50.
imreallyperplexed
Council Member
Interesting.
I do get a sense that you are very serious about a vision of spaceship earth and human communities as passengers on that spaceship. That idea does resonate with me as a broad goal. And you bring up some interesting thinkers who I am not particularly familiar with.
One idea that I am not familiar with is the idea that cities - as currently configured - are "parasites" and unsustainable. I'd be interested in seeing that idea unpacked a little. Why are cities unsustainable? (One implication of my comments was that I am unsure that the "consumer society" that emerged in the United States after WWII is sustainable if it spreads around the globe. I suspect that this is related to your ideas on cities but I am not sure what you think of the "consumer society.")
Expanding into previously uninhabitable regions is likely to take a LOT of investment and a lot of technological innovation. And - in a sense - you might consider it an example of "geo-engineering" (or human modification of harsh environments). Or am I missing something?
I do get a sense that you are very serious about a vision of spaceship earth and human communities as passengers on that spaceship. That idea does resonate with me as a broad goal. And you bring up some interesting thinkers who I am not particularly familiar with.
One idea that I am not familiar with is the idea that cities - as currently configured - are "parasites" and unsustainable. I'd be interested in seeing that idea unpacked a little. Why are cities unsustainable? (One implication of my comments was that I am unsure that the "consumer society" that emerged in the United States after WWII is sustainable if it spreads around the globe. I suspect that this is related to your ideas on cities but I am not sure what you think of the "consumer society.")
Expanding into previously uninhabitable regions is likely to take a LOT of investment and a lot of technological innovation. And - in a sense - you might consider it an example of "geo-engineering" (or human modification of harsh environments). Or am I missing something?
WhistleBlower
Council Member
my outlook is an odd blend of a lot of reading of ancient texts against contemporary speculative science fiction along with modern architecture and engineering. i'm a hebrew-israelite raised in the american reconstructionist reform tradition. i feel myself as a little blob of discrete protoplasm among many different species of protoplasm blobs all powered by the same consciousness. this is a living world and we are but an infinitesimally small proportion of it's mass. we're not even a very significant portion of the planet's total biomass.
i think that people need to rethink their habitats and try to avoid laying down structures that disrupt the surface ecology, particularly at the land/water interfaces. these are the most productive of all habitats and we completely alter them with our concrete, steel and glass. all of the necessities of urban centers have to be piped in. nothing grows there. more oxygen is consumed than released by the plants and more carbon dioxide is released than the plants can fix into biomass. this is not sustainable and is contributing dramatically to global climate change.
if you look at rainfall patterns over florida for as long as they've been recording it, you can clearly see the changes resulting from the evolution of what amounts to a huge wall of concrete, steel and glass that has been built along florida's east coast. heated air rising from that wall often forces storm clouds to rise too high too drop their moisture until they hit the cooler air on the gulf side. coupled with the fresh water consumption of the urban areas, the aquifers are not staying full and the swamps are shrinking, causing huge sinkholes to occur all over the state.
the way it was presented to me when i was young was that the investment in expansion to hostile environments was to be an application of the peace dividend and a display of the projection of american military might for constructive, rather than destructive purposes.
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