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Question for Conservatives

Arkady

President
Unlike a lot of Obama supporters, I'll admit that this economic recovery had been weaker than was necessary, even in light of the absolute mess Bush left. I do, of course, let Obama off the hook for 2009, because I think there was almost nothing he could have done to stop the hemorrhaging faster than he did, given the nature of the crisis (it wasn't a standard business-cycle contraction, like most modern recessions, it was a financial meltdown, like the recession that caused the Great Depression, and like some of the economy-obliterating panics of the 1800s). 2009 was a lost cause, even with the best of policies. But, I believe it was possible to have us restored to robust economic growth and normal job creation before now, and so I fault Obama for not having done so. I'll grant he had very limited options after the Republicans took over Congress and dedicated themselves completely to gridlock. But there are things Obama could have done in '09 and '10 that would have had us much farther along the recovery road today.

If people are interested, I'm happy to provide my thoughts, in detail, about what he could have done differently. But that's not the point of this post. Instead, I'm curious what the conservatives, who are his fiercest critics, think he should have done differently.

Should he have pushed through even more tax cuts than he already did? If so, wouldn't that have resulted in even bigger deficits? And, given the fact that the corporations and the rich are already sitting on piles of money they don't care to invest, due to poor demand growth, how would handing them even more cash have helped? Moreover, doesn't the fact that we had some of the lowest taxes in our modern history, for the eight sub-par economic years leading up to the economic catastrophe, give you pause about the economic efficacy of that method?

The other frequent go-to policy for Republicans is deregulation, but that one's also hard to understand in the current context. We just suffered an economic collapse triggered by the "shadow banking system" -- a system of unregulated and under-regulated financial relationships, using exotic instruments that multiplied and spread economic risk throughout the global system. At best, pushing through more deregulation is like telling an alcoholic to take another drink to calm his hangover.

So, what else should Obama have done, from the conservative perspective?
 
The problem lies in the fact that nothing has changed to prevent a even greater financial meltdown with even greater numbers and greater economic misery, which unfortunately, is probably only months away.

ref:
"The End Game: 2012 And 2013 Will Usher In The End"
www.zerohedge.com/.../big-reset-2012-and-2013-will-usher-e...
May 31, 2012 – "The End Game: 2012 And 2013 Will Usher In The End" - The Scariest .... Complete and Total Worldwide Economic Collapse 2012 ...
You've visited this page 3 times. Last visit: 9/4/12
 
The cheap simplistic pap of "Stop spending"....fails to account for lost tax revenues due to a recession.

To be able to achieve their goal....it would mean making HUGE cuts in services, programs, and entitlements. Which would mean further hardships and even jobs losses both in the public sector and in government contracting.

BTW, if it had been McCain...such cuts wouldn't have been made either. There are no REAL "fiscal conservatives".....even Reagan was a Keynesian.
 
The cheap simplistic pap of "Stop spending"....fails to account for lost tax revenues due to a recession.

To be able to achieve their goal....it would mean making HUGE cuts in services, programs, and entitlements. Which would mean further hardships and even jobs losses both in the public sector and in government contracting.

BTW, if it had been McCain...such cuts wouldn't have been made either. There are no REAL "fiscal conservatives".....even Reagan was a Keynesian.

If you lose revenue, you MUST reduce spending... IT'S CALLED DOWNSIZING so you can live within your means. American household must do it or they go broke and homeless.

Contrary to popular dem delusions, Mafia govts are not immune from law of basic economics
 
I won't say "just reduce costs," butI think there are some approaches taht could have been taken. Just for openers, something should have been done about jobs first, instead of focusing on heatlh care while unemployment was still near 10 percent.

If that meant reducing taxes on companies, or providing other hiring incentives, then it should have been done.

Legally and constitutionally, I'm not certain how to apporach this, but we either need to reward companies who leave manufacturing in the states instead of going off shore, or penalize companies that go offshore. Part of the reason we're so deeply in debt to China is that you can't buy a waffle iron or an hand tool made anywhere else.
 
The problem with asking conservatives that is that any answer they give you about what Obama should have done is something that their own party has either already tried that failed or that their own party is unwilling to do when they control the executive branch.
 
The problem with asking conservatives that is that any answer they give you about what Obama should have done is something that their own party has either already tried that failed or that their own party is unwilling to do when they control the executive branch.

GOP Party will never cut govt spending on anything, But read my lips...they WILL raise your taxes!
 
If you lose revenue, you MUST reduce spending... IT'S CALLED DOWNSIZING so you can live within your means. American household must do it or they go broke and homeless.

Contrary to popular dem delusions, Mafia govts are not immune from law of basic economics

Contrary to popular rightwing delusions....a government is not a "household". Never was. If it was we would have had ZERO National Debt dating back centuries.

And it never will be. Your Utopian fantasies have no basis in historical fact...and never will be.
 
GOP Party will never cut govt spending on anything, But read my lips...they WILL raise your taxes!

Again one of worldly's CYA "both sides are bad" comments that he ONLY comes up with DEEP into a thread, but never as a Top Post....like his criticisms of Romney.

Why?...because he would piss off the Right as well....something a REAL "pure ideologue" would do.
 
admit it ...Arkady..you know nothing about dereugulation do you?...Once again you have gone on a rant about what??? Blaming Republicans because lefty wouldnt regulate fannie mae...hell you wouldnt know what the truth is...

But if you want to whta Obama should have done differently...

1. Study about WWII before going to Poland

2. learn the nationl langueage Of Austria

3. Study basic accounting prinicples

4. Not propose a 68 percent tax increase

5. not spend more than you make

6. Not extend Bush tax cuts then tell everyone Bush was wrong.

7. Not create Obamacare

8. Not give an opinion about Trayvon Martin..as he has tp represent all peoples even Zimmerman...he doesnt get to play favorites

9. No beer summit another time not to say something

10. Should not have told latinos's to punish their enemies

11. invested in failed green energy

12. Should have touted shovel ready jobs if they werenrt shovel ready

13. have michelle Obama critcize Olympic star for having an Egg McMuffin

14. Send Jimmy Carter to help the palestinians

15. have accused rapist(multiple) as keynote speaker at DNC

16. Support OWS only to have them protest and call you "traitor"

17. hire tax cheats in your cabinet

18. Create a "Buffet rule" when he owes back taxes

19. Claim all credit for killing OBL

20. Force tougher regulations on the Auto industry

21. Omit tthe fact that 5 million jobs were lost we claiming 4.5 million were created

22. Run for re- election

23. not fund the DC voucher project...helping minorities and poor get better eductaion

24. Wisconsin.....anything

25. Joe Biden...again there...anything

26. not finishing the guld oil spill

27. not rasing fundsin telethon like Republicans in 08 for Isaac

28. Fast and Furious... Citizens dying and the cover up

29. Nancy Pelosi as speaker

30 Harry Reid...SML

31 barney frank and his boyfriend running prostitution ring out of his house

32. Maxine watters and husband improper behavior in banking

33. Joe Biden racist "Chains" quote

34. Obama standing behind racist quote

35. the Middle eats apology tour

36. eating dog

37. criticizing Romney and dog travel carrier

38. 16 trillion of debt

39 proposing 68 percent tax increase in white house budget...got that from you ark...see table 1

40. not denouncing salon .com or alternet for their fabrications, such as right wing rhetoric kills 12 year old boy in Philadelphia even tho no republican mayor in philly since 1954

41. Creating a budget that proses spending 4.6 trillion hen now we only take in 2.3 trillion

42. Michelle telling anyone what to eat

43. largest carbon foot perint president

44, playing more golf than anyone

45. Not following through with Pay-Go

46. Allowing calderonto come here and criticize america for not letting illegals here(see speech on capitol steps)

47. Obams dream act to allow illegals to register here if qualified

48. Playing the race card

49. failure to follow through with helping tornado victims ..MO, ALA.

50. Not Helping Texas with Wildfire

51 waiting days to come to New Orleans

52. NASA

53. Cuts to Military

54. buying out GM

55. You didnt build that

56. Debbie Wasserman Shultz

Ok that s all I got for now...but it's a good start
 
Choking business regulations coupled by crushing paper shuffling is part of the problem and Obama should have asked Congress to begin tackling that problem so as to make it somewhat easier for businesses [large, medium, small, and micro] to do business. Not a free ride, you understand, but ease off here and there.

Rather than pour money into green energy projects several decades away from the technological advancements needed to make their products competitive he should have poured the funds into massive infrastructure projects with the jobs going to the lowest bidder regardless of Politically Correct notions of leveling the playing field.

He should have openly asked business leaders outside of GE what they needed or wanted done and then passed that along to Congress as well.

Obama played ideologically based leftwing politics with the economy and the nation's financial structure and that's a major reason why he has failed as a president.
 
I won't say "just reduce costs," butI think there are some approaches taht could have been taken. Just for openers, something should have been done about jobs first, instead of focusing on heatlh care while unemployment was still near 10 percent.

I agree that more could and should have been done to create jobs. But I'd remind you that the ARRA (stimulus) was passed and signed in Feb, 2009. Obamacare wasn't signed into law until March 2010.

Legally and constitutionally, I'm not certain how to apporach this, but we either need to reward companies who leave manufacturing in the states instead of going off shore, or penalize companies that go offshore. Part of the reason we're so deeply in debt to China is that you can't buy a waffle iron or an hand tool made anywhere else.

From Obama's acceptance speech last night:

"After a decade of decline, this country created over half a million manufacturing jobs in the last two and a half years. And now you have a choice: we can give more tax breaks to corporations that ship jobs overseas, or we can start rewarding companies that open new plants and train new workers and create new jobs here, in the United States of America."
 
Easy. Stop spending money we don't have.

Would you do that by raising revenues (such that it's money we do have), or by cutting spending? And if it's the latter, which spending, in particular? And, regardless, wouldn't just about EVERY major economist predict that cutting government spending, in the midst of a recession, would actually decrease economic growth, not increase it?
 
The problem lies in the fact that nothing has changed to prevent a even greater financial meltdown with even greater numbers and greater economic misery, which unfortunately, is probably only months away.

ref:

Conceivably true -- at least it isn't immediately disprovable. But that doesn't seem consistent with the mainstream conservative critique of Obama, which blames him for the slowness of the recovery, not for failing to prevent future meltdowns. If Obama were to have done the things that would prevent future meltdowns, it's a good guess that the recovery would have been even slower. After all, the things that would prevent future financial meltdowns would be things like more regulation of financial instruments and the finance industry, and even if those weren't a long-term burden on the economy, one would expect them to be a bit of a short-term burden, as the market adjusted to the new, more conservative financial reality, and as it went through the expense of implementing the new rules.
 
If you lose revenue, you MUST reduce spending... IT'S CALLED DOWNSIZING so you can live within your means. American household must do it or they go broke and homeless.

Contrary to popular dem delusions, Mafia govts are not immune from law of basic economics

Worldlymrb, have you read "The Return of Depression Economics" by Paul Krugman? It's fairly short, very engagingly written, and extremely informative. Even if you don't ultimately agree with it, I'm betting you'd get a lot out of it, so I highly recommend it.

The particular concept I think you need to grapple with is the fact that one person's spending is another person's income. Because of that, if everyone is trying to cut spending, during a recession, then everyone's income is going to fall, too, such that balancing their budget gets no easier. It becomes a self-reinforcing cycle. In fact, that's what a recession is -- pullbacks in spending result in pullbacks in income which result in pullbacks in spending, and so on, potentially lasting for years before something finally bumps the vicious cycle out of its deepening rut. Usually, what does the "bumping" is the government, which can provide counter-cyclical spending growth..... either as part of a conscious effort to get the economy growing again, or accidentally, as part of some other priority (like military mobilization in the event of a major war, which puts people back to work and breaks the recessionary cycle).
 
"After a decade of decline, this country created over half a million manufacturing jobs in the last two and a half years. And now you have a choice: we can give more tax breaks to corporations that ship jobs overseas, or we can start rewarding companies that open new plants and train new workers and create new jobs here, in the United States of America."

ARMCX: He cherry picked his months. He hasn't been in office 29 months, he's been in office 45 months -- during which time we've seen manufacturing jobs fall in total by 500,000 (you can find this critique in the FactCheck on the acceptance speech).
 
Worldlymrb, have you read "The Return of Depression Economics" by Paul Krugman? It's fairly short, very engagingly written, and extremely informative. Even if you don't ultimately agree with it, I'm betting you'd get a lot out of it, so I highly recommend it.

The particular concept I think you need to grapple with is the fact that one person's spending is another person's income. Because of that, if everyone is trying to cut spending, during a recession, then everyone's income is going to fall, too, such that balancing their budget gets no easier. It becomes a self-reinforcing cycle. In fact, that's what a recession is -- pullbacks in spending result in pullbacks in income which result in pullbacks in spending, and so on, potentially lasting for years before something finally bumps the vicious cycle out of its deepening rut. Usually, what does the "bumping" is the government, which can provide counter-cyclical spending growth..... either as part of a conscious effort to get the economy growing again, or accidentally, as part of some other priority (like military mobilization in the event of a major war, which puts people back to work and breaks the recessionary cycle).

LeRoy: Worldly doesn't understand the following very simple point:

Lord Keynes: The boom, and not the slump, is the time for austerity.
 
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