Question for conservatives.
- Thread starter Arkady
- Start date
worldlymrb
Daddy
I think the entire debate was a train wreck and cements my theory we are all doomed.
Colorforms
Senator
I saw it as a tie. Although I thought Joe's demeanor was crude and overbearing, he did fair well against Ryan. And if you haven't been following the news, you might have even believed Biden on a few issues.
Where Biden fell down, however, is actually talking about Obama's plans for anything. He spent most of his time defending the administration on things that they did, but gave no indication of what ideas they have for fixing anything. In that I think Ryan far surpassed Biden.
Where Biden fell down, however, is actually talking about Obama's plans for anything. He spent most of his time defending the administration on things that they did, but gave no indication of what ideas they have for fixing anything. In that I think Ryan far surpassed Biden.
LeRoy_Was_Here
Senator
Get control of the budget deficit by reducing military spending and raising taxes (rather modestly) on the very wealthy. End the war in Afghanistan and bring our boys and girls home. Pass that Jobs Bill that the Republicans have refused to even vote on.
Instead, the Republicans are going to "get control of the budget deficit" by vastly INCREASING military spending and pushing through another 20% across the board tax cut, on top of extending the already irresponsible Bush tax cuts. It is to laugh. I would think you would be better at math, Lukey. How can you keep falling for this kind of bushwa???
Lukey
Senator
So do you think we can reduce military spending $1 trillion a year then? I don't...
RickWA
The Pissant Snagglesooth
I'd say that Biden won it by a bit (not an overwhelming trampling, but a win). Ryan did reasonably well, but he wasn't sufficiently energetic.
And let's be clear about one thing here - these sorts of events are all about projecting energy and vitality rather than content. This is as true this week as it was last week. Understand that we've reduced nearly every political event to pep rally.
And let's be clear about one thing here - these sorts of events are all about projecting energy and vitality rather than content. This is as true this week as it was last week. Understand that we've reduced nearly every political event to pep rally.
LeRoy_Was_Here
Senator
No, Lukey. I think we should spend ~$5.3 trillion on defense over the next ten years, as President Obama plans, and not $7.8 trillion, as Mitt Rmoney plans. But as I have discovered, you seem incapable of doing that very simple subtraction. That would mean $2.5 trillion LESS over the next ten years, which amounts to ~$250 billion less per year. Perhaps you will explain to us where you are coming up with your bogus number of $1 trillion PER YEAR.
First 2 years-make sure the PPACA is fully implemented,complete the drawdown in Afghanistan and reduce defense spending,eliminate the Bush tax cut for the upper bracket and eliminate some of the non-stimulative credits and subsidies,continue hunting down and killing AQ. Those are a few of the things. The reality is that the House will still be GOP controlled and Senate GOPs will be even more obstructionist than the first 4 years. He might try immigration reform in 2014,if for no other reason than to make GOPs in Congress take tough votes and see if they react like they did in 2006. Your party is still sailing into a perfect demographic storm. Last 2 years-depends on the outcome of the 2014 midterms.
Lets see. Five conservatives have responded so far. Three digressed and didn't express an opinion to your question. Of the two that did respond, they split -- one saying it was a tie and one rating the debate a slight edge to Biden.
It's a small sample but your theory about the PJ conservative mindset scores out as follows:
Biden win: 20%
Tie: 20%
Ryan win: 0%
No opinion/Don't know: 60%. Of those in this category, one believes we are all doomed, one refused to answer until liberals explain what a second Obama term means policy-wise, and one complained about Biden's style.
Interesting, no?
It's a small sample but your theory about the PJ conservative mindset scores out as follows:
Biden win: 20%
Tie: 20%
Ryan win: 0%
No opinion/Don't know: 60%. Of those in this category, one believes we are all doomed, one refused to answer until liberals explain what a second Obama term means policy-wise, and one complained about Biden's style.
Interesting, no?
Arkady
President
I responded to that in the other thread. So did another poster.
Arkady
President
Well said. The fact is, as the biggest area of discretionary spending, the military budget is the only place to get savings in the order of magnitude needed to make a sizable change in the deficit. And yet, bizarrely, Romney/Ryan plan to move in the opposite direction in that area, to the tune of about a quarter of a trillion extra over-spend per year. Where will that get the extra money for that? Apparently, they'll get it by lowering revenues to finance a 20% tax decrease. Yeah, it makes no sense to me, either, but those are the core elements of their economic plan.
Arkady
President
My theory was that despite Biden's 19-point win in the eyes of undecideds, no conservatives here would say Biden won, and few would even call it a tie. RickWa proved my theory wrong... whether because he knew what I was up to or because he's just being honest, I don't know. I'd love to see a bigger sample size to check my theory more meaningfully, though. If we polled 1000 Democrats and 1000 Republicans about who won each of the two debates, I think we'd find a whole lot of variation in the opinions of the Democrats, and very little in the opinions of the Republicans. I think Republicans are just less honest, as a group. And I also think they just have more of a reluctance to criticize their own side.
You can see that latter point in other contexts. For example, how often do you hear Republicans being critical of America's actions abroad? There's very little Republican dissent of that sort. They regard America as their team, in the context of foreign policy, and their team can do no wrong. Democrats, obviously, are much more likely to criticize their own country's actions abroad. And I think that same mindset exists in the partisan sphere. Republicans almost never criticize their own team's leaders, even to the extent of panning a debate performance, while Democrats are much more likely to criticize their team's leaders. Read the tweets of Democrats and liberals during the Obama debate, and you'll find lots of criticism directed at Obama's performance, interspersed with the criticism of the moderator and of Romney's lying. Read the tweets of the Republicans and conservatives during the Ryan debate, and you see almost lock-step support of "their guy." It's just a different mindset.
If I'm right and that trend exists, then it would explain the big gap between a poll of all viewers giving Ryan a 4-point win and a poll of undecideds giving Biden a 19-point win. If the committed Romney voters in the former response group were almost universally saying Ryan won, while the committed Obama viewers were indulging in their usual honesty and willingness to second-guess their own leaders, Ryan would have had a big advantage in a poll that mostly consisted of partisans for the two sides.
Arkady
President
That's a deeply depressing, but quite insightful observation.
It's also odd, when you look at pop culture. In the pop culture sphere, there seems to be increasing appetite for hyper-competent but prickly and boorish characters, like Dr. House... people who are so un-personable as to seem almost like they're suffering from Asperger's Syndrome (Monk's another good example, as is the depiction of Zuckerberg in the Social Network). But when it comes to our politicians, we seem to be auditioning for a weatherman on a morning news show. We want someone likeable and easy to take, who gives us a little information but doesn't require too much thinking on our part.
LeRoy_Was_Here
Senator
I can't agree with this, Arkady. Republicans tend to be hypercritical of America's actions abroad, whenever a Democrat happens to be sitting in the Oval Office. Either we're bombing aspirin factories, or apologizing for America, or invading another country's sovereignty in pursuit of terrorists, or intervening in countries where it's none of our business, or 'wagging the dog', or showing abject weakness, or etc., etc. It is only when we have a Republican President that they regard any criticism of American foreign policy as tantamount to treason.
Boca
Governor
Where can I find the poll of undecideds? I only ask because there was a focus group of 30 or 31 of them on last night (admittedly a small sample). I don't recall hearing a count but a show of hands was more or less evenly divided. And when asked if they had decided now not a one raised their hand.
Me personally I would have to say it was a tossup....but only with respect to attracting attention to themselves. That's because these aren't debates at all in the true sense of the word...they are gotcha challenges...and even at that people have little or know way of knowing if a "gotcha" is based on verifiable or truthful information, rather they thought it was a good zinger.
With that said...a tossup...I still believe Biden lost anything he might have gained with his behavior. And, through no fault of own, the rather obvious bias of the "moderator" didn't help him.
Me personally I would have to say it was a tossup....but only with respect to attracting attention to themselves. That's because these aren't debates at all in the true sense of the word...they are gotcha challenges...and even at that people have little or know way of knowing if a "gotcha" is based on verifiable or truthful information, rather they thought it was a good zinger.
With that said...a tossup...I still believe Biden lost anything he might have gained with his behavior. And, through no fault of own, the rather obvious bias of the "moderator" didn't help him.
IrishOne
Mayor
I can not understand why the GOTP is so aquiessing to Rmoney and Ryan's lack of details. It's mind boggling to think that any American should think their plan is ok, without further clarification. Either these people are dumb as fenceposts or there is an unknown scheme brewing. Either way, the American people aren't going to be happily fleeced, I hope.
Obama
Obama
IrishOne
Mayor
Yes, it's all a matter of the GOTP's skewed sense of country when a Democratic president is in the Whitehouse. Take Rmoney being a duffous in England, making a fool of himself, and then again when he made that remark about Obama on the day the ambassador was killed. They are just idiots.
If Democrats acted this way under a Republican prez, there'd be hell to pay. The blinders that the GOTP wear are truly blinding them from the truth.
If Democrats acted this way under a Republican prez, there'd be hell to pay. The blinders that the GOTP wear are truly blinding them from the truth.
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