Two Facts

[Zam-Zam]

Fact 1: According to the US Department of Education, only 7 percent of the eighth graders in the public schools in Detroit, MI, are grade-level proficient or better in reading.


Source: http://newmediajournal.us/indx.php/item/7756


Fact 2: The Detroit metropolitan area has the highest average public school teacher pay among metropolitan areas for which data are available, at $47.28 per hour.....

Source: http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_50.htm



This is not meant to bash Detroit-area teachers. This is meant to illustrate that you can't fix a problem by simply throwing money at it.

 

[BobbyT]

Fact 1: According to the US Department of Education, only 7 percent of the eighth graders in the public schools in Detroit, MI, are grade-level proficient or better in reading.


Source: http://newmediajournal.us/indx.php/item/7756


Fact 2: The Detroit metropolitan area has the highest average public school teacher pay among metropolitan areas for which data are available, at $47.28 per hour.....

Source: http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_50.htm

This is not meant to bash Detroit-area teachers. This is meant to illustrate that you can't fix a problem by simply throwing money at it.

Now you have two pieces of information (and I'm stipulating that your facts are true; I've done no independent verification). So what? Do you think there is a direct correlation between teacher pay and student success, or do you imagine it might just be a little more complex than merely the intersection of those two pieces of data? I can tell you that reducing teacher pay is not going to help the situation, although whether or by how much it would worsen the situation is an unknown.

 

[worldlymrb]

This is not meant to bash Detroit-area teachers. This is meant to illustrate that you can't fix a problem by simply throwing money at it.

Isn't that what bailouts/stimulus/QEx does?

 

[Jen]

Two follow-up truths:

1. You can put a great teacher into a classroom and if the kids there aren't trying to learn, they will not learn. Learning is as much (or more) the job of the student as teaching is the job of the teacher.

2. Paying good money doesn't mean that the person hired (to teach in this instance) will be good at his/ her job. Sometimes the hiring criteria is at odds with that job that needs to be done.

 

[Zam-Zam]

Now you have two pieces of information (and I'm stipulating that your facts are true; I've done no independent verification). So what? Do you think there is a direct correlation between teacher pay and student success, or do you imagine it might just be a little more complex than merely the intersection of those two pieces of data? I can tell you that reducing teacher pay is not going to help the situation, although whether or by how much it would worsen the situation is an unknown.

You're correct. Reducing teacher pay will not improve the situation. Neither will giving them a raise. The solution(s) lie elsewhere.

My point is that you will not improve things by simply throwing money at it. Higher pay for teachers does not equal better results.

 

[Zam-Zam]

Isn't that what bailouts/stimulus/QEx does?

Well, as someone once said, ""Shovel-ready was not as ... uh .. shovel-ready as we expected."

 

[worldlymrb]

1. You can put a great teacher into a classroom and if the kids there aren't trying to learn, they will not learn. Learning is as much (or more) the job of the student as teaching is the job of the teacher.

2. Paying good money doesn't mean that the person hired (to teach in this instance) will be good at his/ her job. Sometimes the hiring criteria is at odds with that job that needs to be done.

Money is no object since it's how the left defines their morality. (goods deeds financed by other people's money)

 

[KnotaFrayed]

Now you have two pieces of information (and I'm stipulating that your facts are true; I've done no independent verification). So what? Do you think there is a direct correlation between teacher pay and student success, or do you imagine it might just be a little more complex than merely the intersection of those two pieces of data? I can tell you that reducing teacher pay is not going to help the situation, although whether or by how much it would worsen the situation is an unknown.

Private school tuition is what? Private schools have to take any student that enrolls or can they pick and choose who attends meaning they are not forced to accept and teach those that disrupt classes for all others and supply special ed, beyond a certain level http://www2.ed.gov/admins/lead/speced/privateschools/idea.pdf

If the USPS could charge a value for carrying all the junk mail it does that covered its costs, it might be solvent if not much closer to it.

While it would be nice to have every child attend a private school, the problem with that is that the cost would be no less and efficieny no more when private schools would be forced to deal with what public schools must. Private schools are like owning a business where you get to pick and choose your customers from a list of those applying to make a purchase from you. If they look like they are going to be problematic, if in no other way than to be disruptive of the other customers, one can regret to inform them that they are not an acceptable applicant. That amongst other differences are not often considered or mentioned in the rush to talk about how terrible public schools are versus private schools.

Public schools don't have the same luxury of exclusion that private schools do.

If private schools were economically less expensive overall, who would support a public school system?

While I agree that simply throwing money at problems does not solve the problem unless the money spent is spent in productive ways. It goes back the same old question of debt and investment versus dead ended "investment" or waste of money. Someone can borrow a sum of money they will use to invest in tools and equipment they then use to make money with and pay off what they borrowed at the same time. Someone can borrow the same sum of money and buy beer with it and literally piss it away.

I think people have to realize that public schools, by virtue of their being public, are obligated to serve all the public and based on that run into unavoidable expenses and inefficiencies that private schools do not run into and can exclude, by virtue of their being private. I think solutions can be found through innovation, but innovation requires an investment in more, not less, money, the point being the return on the investment will be many fold the initial investment.

 

[KnotaFrayed]

Well, as someone once said, ""Shovel-ready was not as ... uh .. shovel-ready as we expected."

"Shovel-ready" in the sense someone starts digging tomorrow means much of the financing and contractors are already in place and thus little need for money.

Projects that were looking for financing to move forward were not "shovel ready" in the sense that providing that financing meant the project would start the next day. Most projects look for financing when they decide to engage in a project and some of that financing is for planning and design as well as for the other costs of the projects associated with construction. Most projects that would have truly been "shovel ready" already had financing in place and weren't looking for money. Other projects that are needed, including infrastructure repair and maintenance, were not shovel ready because there was no money for them to move forward with planning, design and trying to procure financing that was not there. As a result, the projects that were/are looking for money are not shovel ready ones, but still need the money to gear up to the shovel ready point. That takes time, in some cases a year, two or more.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704804204575069772167897834.html
http://www.recovery.gov/Pages/default.aspx

In the case of infrastructure maintenance and repair, it needs to be done sometime and if it can coincide even with a diminished need for the jobs it would create, it is not money that is wasted.

 

[Wahbooz]

You mention Detroit Public Schools but did you notice the rest of the state? Even in the suburbs, where some might think the students would be 'more intelligent':

68 percent of Michigan public-school eighth graders are not proficient in reading and 69 percent are not proficient in math.

From your own link.

I'd say the vast majority of the entire student body has a serious problem with wanting to learn. but at the same time there are bright spots in DPS, such as:

Cass Technical High School, Renaissance High School, and Detroit School of Arts rank highly both statewide and nationallly. However, at many schools some students still do not meet adequate yearly academic progress requirements.[19] Students that fail to meet those requirements struggle in both language and mathematics.

A team of DPS students from Western International High School and Murray-Wright High School took second place out of 552 teams from 25 countries in a robotics competition in Atlanta, Georgia. DPS students, most notably Bates Academy students, did well at the 42nd annual Academic Olympics in Eatonton, Georgia, winning many honors. The Duffield elementary and middle school chess teams both finished first in the 2007 statewide competition, and performed well in the national competition. At a previous Annual National Academic Games Olympics, DPS students won 25 individual and 20 team first place awards.[20][21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Public_Schools

 

[Wahbooz]

Let's go a step further here, Zam. The Median salary for Detroit Public Schools was actually $41,007 in 2006, while the median income for the rest of the state was $57,958. When they requested to be put on par with the suburbs, they were greeted with the threat of the loss of 2,000.

Add to that the fact that most teachers do not work a 9 to 5 job, but spend a great deal of their free time grading homework, tests, and preparing a lesson plan.

But is it the lack of interest from the student body at large or the teachers, or maybe the parents? DPS has had two Emergency Managers and there has been little improvement?

 

[OldGaffer]

Sorry, Wah, that info does not fit the "darkies being bad" meme that the Wingers are promoting.

 

[Wahbooz]

I know, Gaff. That's unfortunate, isn't it.

 

[Zam-Zam]

Private school tuition is what? Private schools have to take any student that enrolls or can they pick and choose who attends meaning they are not forced to accept and teach those that disrupt classes for all others and supply special ed, beyond a certain level http://www2.ed.gov/admins/lead/speced/privateschools/idea.pdf

If the USPS could charge a value for carrying all the junk mail it does that covered its costs, it might be solvent if not much closer to it.

While it would be nice to have every child attend a private school, the problem with that is that the cost would be no less and efficieny no more when private schools would be forced to deal with what public schools must. Private schools are like owning a business where you get to pick and choose your customers from a list of those applying to make a purchase from you. If they look like they are going to be problematic, if in no other way than to be disruptive of the other customers, one can regret to inform them that they are not an acceptable applicant. That amongst other differences are not often considered or mentioned in the rush to talk about how terrible public schools are versus private schools.

Public schools don't have the same luxury of exclusion that private schools do.

If private schools were economically less expensive overall, who would support a public school system?

While I agree that simply throwing money at problems does not solve the problem unless the money spent is spent in productive ways. It goes back the same old question of debt and investment versus dead ended "investment" or waste of money. Someone can borrow a sum of money they will use to invest in tools and equipment they then use to make money with and pay off what they borrowed at the same time. Someone can borrow the same sum of money and buy beer with it and literally piss it away.

I think people have to realize that public schools, by virtue of their being public, are obligated to serve all the public and based on that run into unavoidable expenses and inefficiencies that private schools do not run into and can exclude, by virtue of their being private. I think solutions can be found through innovation, but innovation requires an investment in more, not less, money, the point being the return on the investment will be many fold the initial investment.

I think most people are aware of the vast differences between public and private schools, and no one reasonably expects them to work at the same level. That said, 7% is, I believe most would agree, atrocious for any institution, public or private. If we accept that, shame on us.

 

[Zam-Zam]

You mention Detroit Public Schools but did you notice the rest of the state? Even in the suburbs, where some might think the students would be 'more intelligent':

68 percent of Michigan public-school eighth graders are not proficient in reading and 69 percent are not proficient in math.

From your own link.

I'd say the vast majority of the entire student body has a serious problem with wanting to learn. but at the same time there are bright spots in DPS, such as:

Cass Technical High School, Renaissance High School, and Detroit School of Arts rank highly both statewide and nationallly. However, at many schools some students still do not meet adequate yearly academic progress requirements.[19] Students that fail to meet those requirements struggle in both language and mathematics.

A team of DPS students from Western International High School and Murray-Wright High School took second place out of 552 teams from 25 countries in a robotics competition in Atlanta, Georgia. DPS students, most notably Bates Academy students, did well at the 42nd annual Academic Olympics in Eatonton, Georgia, winning many honors. The Duffield elementary and middle school chess teams both finished first in the 2007 statewide competition, and performed well in the national competition. At a previous Annual National Academic Games Olympics, DPS students won 25 individual and 20 team first place awards.[20][21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Public_Schools

People aren't more or less intelligent based on geography. The point here is that despite higher than average wages being paid, the Detroit-are taxpayer is simply not getting his/her money's worth. I'm sure the reasons for this failure are myriad. It is difficult to imagine that this disaster is not going to have adverse long-term consequences for Detroit unless something is done to turn it around. Teacher compensation does not appear to be the solution.

 

[Zam-Zam]

Sorry, Wah, that info does not fit the "darkies being bad" meme that the Wingers are promoting.

No one inserted race into this until you did. It's your go-to play when you have nothing intelligent to add.

 

[MaryAnne]

No one inserted race into this until you did. It's your go-to play when you have nothing intelligent to add.

No race here,but from what Wah posted a huge difference in the facts. And that happens to be an area Wahbooz is familiar with,so I rest my case.

I know for a fact Teachers work much longer hours than the average 8 to 3 hours kids are in school.That alone would put a fib to the $47 an hour.

 

[NightSwimmer]

You've stated your strongly held belief that increasing teacher pay rates is not the solution to this problem. Do you have an alternative solution to offer, or do you simply enjoy bitching? I am also curious as to whether you believe that these teachers are currently overpaid?

 

[Zam-Zam]

No race here,but from what Wah posted a huge difference in the facts. And that happens to be an area Wahbooz is familiar with,so I rest my case.

I know for a fact Teachers work much longer hours than the average 8 to 3 hours kids are in school.That alone would put a fib to the $47 an hour.

No one disputed Wah's facts. They don't, however, change the reality of the Detroit Public School System. Yes, many teachers go above and beyond (not all), and as I pointed out in the top post, this isn't about bashing teachers. This is about bashing the myth that more money equals better results. In Detroit, it does not.

 

[Zam-Zam]

You've stated your strongly held belief that increasing teacher pay rates is not the solution to this problem. Do you have an alternative solution to offer, or do you simply enjoy bitching? I am also curious as to whether you believe that these teachers are currently overpaid?

I wish I had an easy solution to the problem, I'd gladly put it forth. I don't believe there is one. Part of the problem lies with the parents, part with the system itself. I could adopt the attitude that everything is fine, but it isn't. Do you think it is?

If we doubled the salary of all the Detroit area teachers, do you believe the results would improve? If so, why?