Queen Titania
Senator
Unlike you, I see no difference between the Presidents. As far as Foreign Policies are concerned, which is my only concern, there is none.
About them doggone drones.
- Thread starter Gramps
- Start date
Unlike you, I see no difference between the Presidents. As far as Foreign Policies are concerned, which is my only concern, there is none.
Queen Titania
Senator
The sad thing is, because your soldiers refused to occupy your would be Orthodox Empire after WWII, the Empire had to became insidious. What the [Unwelcome language removed] happened to those soldiers who refused to be complicit ? Where were their voices over the years ?
NightSwimmer
Senator
My mother was a Londoner, she knew what it was to have bombs raining down never knowing if it would be her. My Grand mother remembered the Buzz Bombs ( first Drones ) of the first World War but both women, more especially my Ma felt for the women being bombed by us. All those men and women who knew War are leaving us too it now ...........are they taking empathy with them ?
The Axis powers could have blown the entire island off the map -- had we allowed them to.
You're welcome.
jammer
Mayor
Well let's see who is getting droned shall we Gabby? Leaders of al Qeada, known enemies of the US. Leaders and troops of the Taliban, ditto. Thre US citizens living in a country hostile to the US and as religious leaders, encouraging their followers to "Kill the American dogs!". They weren't saying "Kill American soldiers" they were telling their follower to kill all Americans, young, old, men, women, children. If they were American these bastardos wanted them killed.
Living with the enemy and spewing his hatred of the country that gave you birth and its citizens is enough proof of guilt for me.
jammer
Mayor
Hey Queenie, clean your own house before spreading crap about ours. Great Britian has lots to answer for occupying Northern Ireland for the last century. How many innocents you folks killed in the name of the Queen?
LeRoy_Was_Here
Senator
Sheesh. There were TENS OF THOUSANDS of eyewitnesses in Manhattan who SAW those two planes fly into the Towers.
They're ALL a BUNCHA LIARS, right, Queenie? Right?
LeRoy_Was_Here
Senator
Not to mention the complete and utter extermination of the Tasmanians, history's most effective genocide. Perpetrated by Victorian British 'gentlemen'.
Oops. I said I wasn't going to mention it!
NightSwimmer
Senator
LeRoy_Was_Here
Senator
Yogi Berra: You can observe a lot, just by looking.
Arkady
President
Middleview, I assume you could come up with a list of requirements you think would be sufficient to justify a drone strike, outside a war-zone, to kill a suspect. I could, to. There would need to be probable cause to believe the person was actively plotting to kill Americans, there'd need to be a reasonable basis on which to think that he couldn't realistically be captured alive and brought to trial, and there'd have to be a reasonable belief that he could be killed without excessive loss of innocent lives. Sound good to you? The problem is that each of those three prongs involve a judgment call.
That's not, of course, unusual, in the context of other dangerous people, like suspected murderers domestically. But the way we deal with it is to have checks and balances, so that it's not all in one person's absolute (and secret) discretion to make those calls. For example, for a search to be conducted of a murder suspect's house, both the police and the judge need to concur, in their INDEPENDENT JUDGMENT, that there's probable cause. And in the case of the judge, he's expected to be impartial, not an advocate of a particular side. Moreover, he's expected to be operating within the confines of precedent, and ultimately his exercises of discretion can be reviewed at trial, and upon appeal. That holds people in check. Right now we don't have that with these summary executions. It's entirely within the president's discretion, using only whatever advice and standards he, personally, wants to follow.
I could support a system that allowed targeted killings, if there were standards that had the force of law, and checks and balances that reined in any individual's exercise of discretion. That's not what we have right now.
Arkady
President
By the way, nothing I'm saying would have been remotely controversial among liberals in 2008. Candidate Obama agreed with me entirely. But, now that Obama is on the other side of the issue, the majority of lefties have snapped to attention behind him, and attack anyone making these points.
LeRoy_Was_Here
Senator
Candidate Obama never disputed the legitimacy of George W. Bush's drone attacks on terrorists who could not be apprehended. If you say he did, could you provide some evidence of that?
NightSwimmer
Senator
Nice blanket statement you got there, Buddy.
Be a shame if something bad happened to it...
Arkady
President
Incorrect. The means of being elevated to dictator don't change the fact it's a dictatorship. In fact, the term itself comes from the title of an elected position in the Roman Republic. What was different about the Dictators wasn't how they came to office (by election of the Senate, just like the Consuls), but rather with the extent of their powers (they were given effectively limitless powers for the term of their dictatorship, to deal with a particular crisis). What so many lefties are now advocating for Obama is almost textbook dictatorship in the Roman sense -- an elected official being given effectively limitless power for some term in order to deal with a perceived crisis.
As for the rest of your post, I advocate the issuing of warrants, yes, for suspects outside of any warzone. I'd be comfortable, however, with the creation of special execution warrants. As with arrest warrants, that would require a finding of probable cause by an independent judge. But, it would also require an independent determination that arrest isn't a realistic option, and that the execution can be carried out with minimal risk to innocents.
Perhaps I'm not making the case as eloquently as I could. You might want to go back and read candidate Obama, on the subject, in 2008 -- back before he switched sides and pulled with him all those whose positions are dictated by party loyalty not principles.
Arkady
President
Nice blanket statement you got there, Buddy.
Be a shame if something bad happened to it...
It would. But I'm not worried.
RedCloud
Mayor
Gabe, most Americans, unlike some Canadians, consider it honorable to protect our citizens from any preventable harm. If some innocent people die in the process then so be it. For instance, if my neighbor across the street has shot a member of my family and is still sniping at others then I will take him out by any means possible. If his wife and kids are in the house when I blow it up then that is a sad thing. They either should have stopped him or got out of the house.
I am proud that my government is taking the route of protecting its citizens and not being hampered by the means of doing so. Let those who want to hide behind our constitution realize that it is for Americans citizens and that a traitor is not considered an American.
NightSwimmer
Senator
In all fairness to President Obama, that was also before he had access to presidential security briefings.
Queen Titania
Senator
You tried that with Japan, didn't manage it eh ? Not as mighty as you thought eh ?
Gramps
Mayor
There is a world of distance between being a candidate running for office and being the elected official who won the contest. I recall a Burt Reynolds role where he was out to sea swimming to make shore which was a good distance away and he implored of the Lord to help him make it and he could have everything he owned, then after he got closer to shore he revised his prayer to half of what he had, then 10%. Get the idea? If Obama had run a loser's campaign he'd have lost. And tallking soft when we're at war wouldve cost him the election. However unfortunate it was for Mitt that his secret weapon (bullet-proof underwear) didn't sell as an innovative conception of modern war goods. (Couldn't pass that opportunity up).
Gramps
Gramps
Queen Titania
Senator
Well since you are the only ones wanting to play the game of War and you only play with the ones who have no toys .....you should know !
