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Affirmative Action

Arkady

President
Just to take a step away from the election, for a minute, and address a specific issue, I'm wondering what people here think about race-based affirmative action (in personnel and admissions decisions, private or public.)

I'm ambivalent about it. The strongest case I've heard for race-based affirmative action was made by writer Michael Kinsley, years ago. The argument goes more or less like this. If you accept that, on average, racial minorities have faced more unfair discrimination and other disadvantages than whites, then you should admit that, on average, race-based affirmative action will reduce an unfairness more often than it will exacerbate one. Statistically, it's impossible to deny that most racial minority groups are, on average, economically disadvantaged relative to whites (e.g., you have a much greater likelihood of having been born into a poor family and having attended a bad primary school if you're black than if you're white). So, the expected net impact of race-based affirmative action will tend to be positive, in terms of leveling the playing field. Add to that the side advantage of the practice "seeding" minority communities with role models, mentors, and other connections needed for success, and it's hard to argue we're better off without it.

That said, seeing how it works in practice can really stick in my craw. In my professional life, I know several people who have definitely been the beneficiaries of race-based affirmative action -- being hired or promoted when they otherwise would not have, because the company is emphasizing "diversity" and they come from under-represented minority groups. In some cases, this may be remedying an historical inequity -- at least one of the people I'm thinking of came from a poor background and lacked the kinds of personal connections that are so important in a traditional "good old boy's network," and those disadvantages probably could be traced indirectly to her race and the deep history of racism in this country. So, for her, affirmative action worked as intended. But in a clear majority of the cases, the people benefiting from the affirmative action were the children of rich doctors and lawyers, who had more advantages than half of the white people here, meaning affirmative action simply heightened an inequity.

I'll give the profile of one particular recipient He is Hispanic -- a fact he makes sure to mention early and often in conversations, because otherwise you'd never know. He has an Italian-sounding name, a generic upper-class American accent, and a complexion and features that are ethnically indeterminate. So, if he has ever faced any racial discrimination, it would shock me, since the only people who'd even have known his race are those he chose to tell. Nor does he come from any kind of disadvantaged background. His father is an extremely wealthy surgeon, and he attended elite private boarding schools. We're not talking Bush/Romney level advantages, but he was set up better than the vast majority of people in this country. His family also serves on boards of companies and charities, so he has all the connections he needs to get high-level jobs, and he runs in the same social circles as senior executives who can open doors and mentor him along the way. Even before he was making good money in his own career, he bought a house in one of the richest neighborhoods in America, with the help of lots of family money for a down payment. Despite all that, he's had the benefit of preferential academic admissions, hiring, and promotions, based solely on his Hispanic ancestry.

Meanwhile, a non-Hispanic white person can come from a background of outright poverty, with no family money or connections to help him, and still be treated as advantaged. And it's even possible for a non-Hispanic white to face the kind of discrimination we think of in the racial context (if, say, he has a poor regional dialect that marks him as "low class" in the eyes of some, or if he has an Eastern European accent that marks him as a "foreigner.") Despite those disadvantages and likely triggers for discrimination, the non-Hispanic white would receive no compensatory advantages in any decision-making.

Although I find Kinsley's argument convincing, in deciding between having race-based affirmative action and having no affirmative action, I don't think those are the only options. I'd like to see affirmative action that is keyed to class, instead of race, or that at least included class as a larger factor than race. Those who come from working class or impoverished backgrounds would get extra consideration. Perhaps, as between two people from poor families in economically depressed communities (e.g., an Appalachian white and a Detroit black), the racial minority might get extra consideration, in an attempt to counter some remnant racism in the society. But as between a racial minority from a background of privilege and a white from a disadvantaged background, I'd favor the latter, in order to level the playing field.
 
So how to you feel about Elizabeth Warren using her unverifiable claim to 1/16th Cherokee heritage to her career advantage?
 
I'm fundamentally a two issue voter when it comes to national level elections. I'm opposed to affirmative action and I'm opposed to gun control, and I'll vote for a Democrat at the national level when those two issues quit being positives in their national platform (in other words, right after my skiing vacation through hell).

Have established my position in the matter, I've had a lot of debates on this issue with the well-informed liberal on this forum, Degsme. His argument in favor of affirmative action is that you can't make the comparison that you have made between your rich, privileged person favored by affirmative action, and a poor white person unfavored by affirmative action programs.

The reasoning is that the rich Hispanic, no matter how favored in general society by his privileged background, faces obstacles to his success among his economic peers because of his Hispanic background, and that is compensated for via affirmative action.

I disagree strenuously, in part because there is no class distinction made in the affirmative action programs themselves. The white person, no matter how underprivileged competes as a "privileged" person for the job/student admission/student aid side-by-side with the "disadvantaged" rich person of the correct race to benefit from the affirmative action program. There is no distinction for class, merely for diversity.

A case dealing with some of these issues is before SCOTUS in its recently opened session. It will be interesting to see how it turns out.
 
So how to you feel about Elizabeth Warren using her unverifiable claim to 1/16th Cherokee heritage to her career advantage?

As I understand it, there's some question about whether she ever used it to her career advantage. But, if she tried to do so, I don't like it at all. It's not something that would overwhelm how much better she is, overall, than Brown, but it would be a mark against her, in my book.
 
The reasoning is that the rich Hispanic, no matter how favored in general society by his privileged background, faces obstacles to his success among his economic peers because of his Hispanic background, and that is compensated for via affirmative action.

In the particular case I'm talking about, that's clearly untrue. He would only even be identified as Hispanic if he wished to be, since he lacks all of the ordinary cues of Hispanic origin (name, accent, appearance). The fact he brings his Hispanic background up frequently implies that, in fact, he (quite rationally) thinks it's something that will result in a net advantage for him, rather than obstacles.

I don't doubt there are other Hispanics who face a very different outlook. Especially for someone with a strong accent, and very ethnic features and name, xenophobia might work against them (since they would come across as "other" to a lot of decision-makers). So, the argument in favor of race-based/ethnicity-based affirmative action would have to be based on the idea that in the majority of cases people from certain racial/ethnic backgrounds are disadvantaged, notwithstanding the existence of some exceptions.
 
In the particular case I'm talking about, that's clearly untrue. He would only even be identified as Hispanic if he wished to be, since he lacks all of the ordinary cues of Hispanic origin (name, accent, appearance). The fact he brings his Hispanic background up frequently implies that, in fact, he (quite rationally) thinks it's something that will result in a net advantage for him, rather than obstacles.

I don't doubt there are other Hispanics who face a very different outlook. Especially for someone with a strong accent, and very ethnic features and name, xenophobia might work against them (since they would come across as "other" to a lot of decision-makers). So, the argument in favor of race-based/ethnicity-based affirmative action would have to be based on the idea that in the majority of cases people from certain racial/ethnic backgrounds are disadvantaged, notwithstanding the existence of some exceptions.

I hope Degs chimes in on this thread. I agree with you, but I'm relatively certain he would attempt to counter.
 
In the particular case I'm talking about, that's clearly untrue. He would only even be identified as Hispanic if he wished to be, since he lacks all of the ordinary cues of Hispanic origin (name, accent, appearance). The fact he brings his Hispanic background up frequently implies that, in fact, he (quite rationally) thinks it's something that will result in a net advantage for him, rather than obstacles.

So essentially you are saying that minorities should "whitify" themselves rather than be taken at face value.


See the thing that "sticks in your craw" is the same FALSE judgment that sticks in Trapdoor's craw, and which is at the core of the current case before the Supreme Court.

Namely that your personal experience - at the end of an extended DIFFERENT PATH through life, is one in which You percieve yourself (or someone near you) as being treated unfairly by the application of Affirmative Action. And yet nothing could be further from the truth.

You do not know what level of discrimination this co-worker faced EARLIER IN LIFE. Whether or not he was forced by such pressure to abandon cultural signifiers, to spend money on changing his accent etc. The fact that you even KNOW he is a "diversity hire" indicates that there ARE markers there. Markers that do affect tohers even if not you (though Harvards Implicit Associativity Testing shows the vast majority of us to be biased even in such circumstances).

Nor is Affirmative Action doing what Michael Kinsley argues - ie reducing unfairness. Rather it is insuring that the better candidate receive the job.

Consider the following hypothetical example:

you are the coach of a pro football team and you have to pick between two candidates for the job of running back They are both pretty much equally healthy, tough and skilled in juking and weaving. So you set up a sprint-off since the fastest one is the better candidate. You have one assistant coach looking ONLY at the finish line to make sure that even the closest of finishes can be resolved

Bang goes the gun and they are off

About half-way down the track an errant ball from the field hits one of the runners in the feet causing him to stumble and lose two paces to the other runner

The stumbling runner really turns it on though and at the finish its a difference of an arms length.

Your Asst. Coach steps forward to congratulate the First place Finisher...


BUT DO YOU?​

I'd argue that the runner who was tripped up by the football AND ALMOST CAUGHT UP actually ran the faster and more applicable speed run. He is MORE QUALIFIED for the job even though in that specific narrow measure he ostensibly measured less than the other candidate.

If you pick the candidate that got hit by the ball, you are engaged in"affirmative Action". You are Taking into consideration the ADEVERSE IMPACTS that affected the final performance.



Now we have a recent study out, that replicates earlier studies http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/science/bias-persists-against-women-of-science-a-study-says.html http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf http://www.helium.com/items/290100-effects-of-teacher-bias-on-high-school-students?page=2 http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1989-17102-001
What it shows is that subtle biases in teacher behaviour affect outcomes over time. For example Johnny Smith is not only given more time to respond but he is prompted to the correct answer if he is close. OTOH if Xadia Shaniqua Aquino answers EXACTLY the same thing, she is given less time to respond and is told "no".

This won't show up unless you stick an unobtrusive camera in the classroom and then actually TIME the outcomes. So YOU the white Parent sitting in on the classroom WILL NOT NOTICE THE BIAS. Xadia's mom might - precisely becaue of having experienced that kind of dismissal all her life. But even she might not. BUT the recent study takes this further and switches teachers around the classes. the only difference was that the teachers were "briefed" before coming into class which students were "AP Track" and which ones were strugling.
Essentially a form of "affirmative action" since it elevated some at the cost of others. And what you saw was that the teacher preferences switched. Normally of course such prebiasing does not exist and teachers carry in their acculturated racial and gender biases.


So what that means is that if you have two candidates for 1 admissions slot, and EVERYTHING including GPA and socioeconomic background is the same - but one is a minority... THE BETTER STUDENT IS THE MINORITY. Why? Because they have already worked harder to get where they are and overcome more... IOW they have ACCOMPLISHED MORE.

All Affirmative Action does is recognize this greater accomplishment.





Now Trapdoor will be quick to change his normal Negativist Liberty view and point out that HE as a white male from a poorer family, had more strikes agaisnt him than say Vanessa Williams (I went to school with her) who was born to two very well educated upper middle class African American Parents who made sure they lived in one of the top 10 School Districts in the nation and sent her to Julliard for extra music tutoring during HS.

And this is true. But the key here is that Vanessa was not competeing with Trapdoor (all three of us are within a year of each other). Vanessa was competing with folks like me. Who also had highly educated parents and were male and white.

That means that Affirmative Action for Vanessa was not done at the expense of Trapdoor or to offset unfair competition from Trap. Because frankly Trap would have had a very very tough time competing given his "family of origin" handicaps. Rather it was as a way of recognizing that even in a progressive wealthy top notch School District, Williams ran into teachers who's subtle biases showed through (we had one female biology teacher that went out of her way to humiliate girls she thought were "pretty but dumb"). Biases that folks like myself and my male peers BENEFITTED FROM.


And that is what Affirmative Action is for and why it STILL NEEDS to be in place. We still have study after study showing how racial and gender bias affects evaluations. In a 3 year old study by the Management Institute, they found that in a retail setting with "coached" actors playing the roles of sales-staff, that White Males got the highest ratings, black men the lowest - regardless if the white males were in the role of "unhelpful" and the black males "helpful". MI replicated this in a hospital setting where medical outcomes could be measured agasint patient evaluations. And again, white males came out on top regardless of actual outcome.

And now we have the recent teacher study that confirms the "in class biases" of a study done 20 years ago.


Is it getting better? Yes

But remember, in Trap's and My lifetime (and we are still a long way from retirement) - the State of Georgia and also IIRC Tenn, rather than comply with Brownn v Board of Ed SHUT DOWN ALL of their public education.

The same town that Vanessa and I grew up in, finally settled its race based redlining lawsuit in 1978


This is not "ancient history"... this is legally enforced discrimination through the late 1970s... and we are seeing similar racism in the gerrymandering of Texas and other districts.
 
Just to take a step away from the election, for a minute, and address a specific issue, I'm wondering what people here think about race-based affirmative action (in personnel and admissions decisions, private or public.)

I'm ambivalent about it. The strongest case I've heard for race-based affirmative action was made by writer Michael Kinsley, years ago. The argument goes more or less like this. If you accept that, on average, racial minorities have faced more unfair discrimination and other disadvantages than whites, then you should admit that, on average, race-based affirmative action will reduce an unfairness more often than it will exacerbate one. Statistically, it's impossible to deny that most racial minority groups are, on average, economically disadvantaged relative to whites (e.g., you have a much greater likelihood of having been born into a poor family and having attended a bad primary school if you're black than if you're white). So, the expected net impact of race-based affirmative action will tend to be positive, in terms of leveling the playing field. Add to that the side advantage of the practice "seeding" minority communities with role models, mentors, and other connections needed for success, and it's hard to argue we're better off without it.

That said, seeing how it works in practice can really stick in my craw. In my professional life, I know several people who have definitely been the beneficiaries of race-based affirmative action -- being hired or promoted when they otherwise would not have, because the company is emphasizing "diversity" and they come from under-represented minority groups. In some cases, this may be remedying an historical inequity -- at least one of the people I'm thinking of came from a poor background and lacked the kinds of personal connections that are so important in a traditional "good old boy's network," and those disadvantages probably could be traced indirectly to her race and the deep history of racism in this country. So, for her, affirmative action worked as intended. But in a clear majority of the cases, the people benefiting from the affirmative action were the children of rich doctors and lawyers, who had more advantages than half of the white people here, meaning affirmative action simply heightened an inequity.

I'll give the profile of one particular recipient He is Hispanic -- a fact he makes sure to mention early and often in conversations, because otherwise you'd never know. He has an Italian-sounding name, a generic upper-class American accent, and a complexion and features that are ethnically indeterminate. So, if he has ever faced any racial discrimination, it would shock me, since the only people who'd even have known his race are those he chose to tell. Nor does he come from any kind of disadvantaged background. His father is an extremely wealthy surgeon, and he attended elite private boarding schools. We're not talking Bush/Romney level advantages, but he was set up better than the vast majority of people in this country. His family also serves on boards of companies and charities, so he has all the connections he needs to get high-level jobs, and he runs in the same social circles as senior executives who can open doors and mentor him along the way. Even before he was making good money in his own career, he bought a house in one of the richest neighborhoods in America, with the help of lots of family money for a down payment. Despite all that, he's had the benefit of preferential academic admissions, hiring, and promotions, based solely on his Hispanic ancestry.

Meanwhile, a non-Hispanic white person can come from a background of outright poverty, with no family money or connections to help him, and still be treated as advantaged. And it's even possible for a non-Hispanic white to face the kind of discrimination we think of in the racial context (if, say, he has a poor regional dialect that marks him as "low class" in the eyes of some, or if he has an Eastern European accent that marks him as a "foreigner.") Despite those disadvantages and likely triggers for discrimination, the non-Hispanic white would receive no compensatory advantages in any decision-making.

Although I find Kinsley's argument convincing, in deciding between having race-based affirmative action and having no affirmative action, I don't think those are the only options. I'd like to see affirmative action that is keyed to class, instead of race, or that at least included class as a larger factor than race. Those who come from working class or impoverished backgrounds would get extra consideration. Perhaps, as between two people from poor families in economically depressed communities (e.g., an Appalachian white and a Detroit black), the racial minority might get extra consideration, in an attempt to counter some remnant racism in the society. But as between a racial minority from a background of privilege and a white from a disadvantaged background, I'd favor the latter, in order to level the playing field.

Arkady, I agree that affirmative action has its pros and cons (Boy, what a profound statement!), I think your idea of affirmative action being judged on class instead of race is a very good one. I believe that in the long run to base it on race is a disadvantage to the ones receiving it--in that it would tend to discourage the striving for excellence.

In evolutionary terms, affirmative action negates the natural process of the survival of the fittest.
 
If you accept that, on average, racial minorities have faced more unfair discrimination and other disadvantages than whites,

and that is the whole basis of lefty philosophy...that certain folks dont have a chance. The idea thataffirmative action came such a short time after civil rights... right after we as a nation came together to say all peoples are equal.

It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer -

(1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual’s race, color, religion, sex, or national origin; or

(2) to limit, segregate, or classify his employees or applicants for employment in any way which would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect his status as an employee, because of such individual’s race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/titlevii.cfm

In this what is being referenced here is that Affirmative Action...or lefty legislation says that the relief against discrimination wont be relieved and that equal opprotunity employment practices wont be practiced. I dont believe that the nature of Human beings is that they want a hand out or that a person should be given something based on skin color ...it denegrates the person and takes away incentives to achieve a more perfect work place. One where peoples strive to be the best they can be, one that promotes the best employees based on skill, one that says if you are , regardless of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin willing to work hard that you can have an opportunity to succeed.

As long as people are not recieving relief from prejudicial practices that were addressed in the 1964 Civil Rights bill then there will be a need for affirmative action and that is what the democrat wants.
 
Just to take a step away from the election, for a minute, and address a specific issue, I'm wondering what people here think about race-based affirmative action (in personnel and admissions decisions, private or public.)

it's racism. culturally acceptable racism (by lefty), but racism nonetheless; as such it has no place in our society.

there is one standard for evaluating one's performance and that's merit. we all begin at different points on the race course. some have a bigger head start than others. it's how we train for and run the race that distinguishes us.

might as well give people with curly hair an extra bogey or right handers who's parents drive ford products.
 
it's racism. culturally acceptable racism (by lefty), but racism nonetheless; as such it has no place in our society.

there is one standard for evaluating one's performance and that's merit. we all begin at different points on the race course. some have a bigger head start than others. it's how we train for and run the race that distinguishes us.

Right... so ignoring a head start and continual boosts that come as a result of being white and male... that's NOT racism..

recognizing that, and taking that into consideration is...


IOW According to you, the very act of recognizing racism is itself.. racism..


WELLL DONE.
 
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