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Annulment - ???

BobbyT

Governor
Okay, after reading through a couple of threads that mentioned Gingrich and marriage annulment, I have to admit I don't really understand the concept. I get that people who have been previously married and divorced, and who want to now (or once again) get married in the Catholic church, have to have their previous marriage(s) annuled, but what does that mean? I thought that originally marriages could be annuled if the couple, having been betrothed as infants or youngsters for political or dynastic purposes, could have their marriage annuled if it was not/could not be consummated, but what does annulment mean in the modern sense? If you have children from a previous marriage (thereby demonstrating that the marriage was consummated), do the children become effectively bastards? And why would the Catholic church regard marriages that obviously had been consummated as eligible for annulment?

Partly I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious, and partly because my four-times-married sister is currently going through the process of having her four previous marriages annuled so she can marry husband #5 in the Catholic church. It is quite an ordeal for her, paperwork, time, and money mostly, and she won't discuss it with me (perhaps because of my cynical outlook??). So can anyone explain it to me from the Catholic perspective? Thanks - I really am interested in the modern perspective on this.
 
Speaking strictly from what I know. How much is this costing her? I know it can be as low as $500,or much more if you can afford it. And before the group comes in to tell me I am wrong I saw this happen.

It only cost 500 in the case I know. I am quite sure it was more with the Kennedys.
 
Speaking strictly from what I know. How much is this costing her? I know it can be as low as $500,or much more if you can afford it. And before the group comes in to tell me I am wrong I saw this happen.

It only cost 500 in the case I know. I am quite sure it was more with the Kennedys.

Maryanne - good question, but I can't answer it. She doesn't talk about it with me any more since I asked her if her three children from her previous marriages would be considered bastards. I don't even know if they would be, which was part of why I was asking the question here. It just seems odd to me that a marriage could be annulled and considered like it never happened, especially if the vows were made before God in a religious ceremony.
 
You need connieb. She went through this. And she also studied up on it I think.

I know they used to teach that there were only very specific criteria for annuling a marriage. Like you mentioned, basically, and if there was coercion, or the couple was related by blood, or one was previously/still married, or wouldn't agree to have children.

But Ted Kennedy?

I don't think annullment considers that the marriage never happened. But rather that it was an invalid union for the sacrament, even if intentions were honest.
 
You need connieb. She went through this. And she also studied up on it I think.

I know they used to teach that there were only very specific criteria for annuling a marriage. Like you mentioned, basically, and if there was coercion, or the couple was related by blood, or one was previously/still married, or wouldn't agree to have children.

But Ted Kennedy?

I don't think annullment considers that the marriage never happened. But rather that it was an invalid union for the sacrament, even if intentions were honest.

Gigi - thanks. Do you know how lenient the definition is for "invalid union"? If there's no evidence of coersion, and the couple isn't related by blood, and there's no problem with being currently married or not willing to have children - obviously there's previous marriages in my sister's case - how does the Catholic church still grant an annulment? In my sister's case there's paperwork and money, but the priest hasn't said that there's no chance for her to get the annulment, she just has to go through all the hoops (although ultimately she could be denied, according to the priest). So I still don't get the rationale for the annulment, and also, do you know if her children from previous marriages are considered bastards, or is there an exemption even though the previous marriages are considered invalid by the church that the children are still legitimate even though the marriage has been declared null?
 
Thanks Apteryx - for the first article, it appears that "psychological unfitness for marriage unrecognized at the time of the union" could be defined so broadly as to be virtually unnecessary to defend. If that is the yardstick by which marriage should be considered valid, there's no restriction whatsoever on what marriage can be annulled, for those who can write a coherent sentence or two. But if that's the case, how can any marriage be considered to be valid? As to the second article: Newt - yuck. Just ..... gross. If Newt and Callista are good Catholics, there is no measure of a good Catholic either. It appears to be, from Newt and Callista's example, "if it feels good, do it" and endeavor to "keep up appearances" later, when it becomes important. Blech.
 
it appears that "psychological unfitness for marriage unrecognized at the time of the union" could be defined so broadly as to be virtually unnecessary to defend. If that is the yardstick by which marriage should be considered valid, there's no restriction whatsoever on what marriage can be annulled, for those who can write a coherent sentence or two.

If I recall correctly, that's the one that TK used...I don't think it's a matter of how many sentences one can write, but how many 0s one is willing to put on the check...
 
Me, personally... I couldn't care less what the Vatican thinks. In my book, a person that has been married four times has never really been "married" -- and most likely never will be.

It's not up to the Church to decide. Only the participants can determine whether they are making a real commitment to one another. None of the broom-jumping, glass-stomping or other such doololly rituals can change that.
 
My wife went through the process of having her previous marriage annulled, before we were married. As I remember, it involved a lot of chit chat with our pastor, filling out of forms, and back n' forths, with Vatican bureaucrats.

We should keep in mind that The Church's ultimate goal IS for people to be married in the Church, even as it's not in their interest to make it as easy as say....paying a parking ticket.
 
Wow, I don't like to comment on stuff like this, but how do those kids feel? it's like a person is removing any reference to a previous life in their history, so what does that mean to the children?

I hope they are not affected by this, it sounds a little heavy handed to me

Regards
Pace
 
I doubt God is fooled by such technicalities. I stayed married way too long, wasn't until I read Milton's "Doctrine and Discipline" or divorce that I got one.

THE DOCTRINE OF DISCIPLINE AND DIVORCE

RESTORED TO THE GOOD OF BOTH SEXES, FROM THE BONDADGE

OF CANON LAW, AND OTHER MISTAKES, TO THE TRUE

MEANING OF SCRIPTURE IN THE LAW AND

GOSPEL COMPARED.

WHEREIN ALSO ARE SET DOWN THE BAD CONSEQUENCES OF

ABOLISHING, OR CONDEMNING AS SIN, THAT WHICH THE

LAW OF GOD ALLOWS, AND CHRIST ABOLISHED NOT."


The rest, like all Milton, is a joy to read!!!
 
Wow, I don't like to comment on stuff like this, but how do those kids feel? it's like a person is removing any reference to a previous life in their history, so what does that mean to the children?

I hope they are not affected by this, it sounds a little heavy handed to me

Regards
Pace

Pace, thanks. Yes, the children are affected but I don't think so much by the potential annulments. The kids are the products of marriages number 1 and 2 (two from marriage 1 and 1 from marriage 2), so they've had two additional 'fathers' before this latest one. They all kept the last names of their respective fathers and I don't see them changing them now, as the older two are mid-teens and the younger one is nearly 10. I was more curious about the church's stance on the status of the children.
 
Me, personally... I couldn't care less what the Vatican thinks. In my book, a person that has been married four times has never really been "married" -- and most likely never will be.

It's not up to the Church to decide. Only the participants can determine whether they are making a real commitment to one another. None of the broom-jumping, glass-stomping or other such doololly rituals can change that.

Nightswimmer, I agree. I have never understood her need to marry every man who beds her - I can certainly see why she divorced them because they were all dregs (either druggies or alcoholics). But for some reason that I completely cannot understand, she feels the need to get the annulments so she can 'honor' this current one's church affiliation; she was not raised Catholic and had not previously been interested in converting. Maybe she thinks a church sanction of this latest union will somehow make it last?
 
My wife went through the process of having her previous marriage annulled, before we were married. As I remember, it involved a lot of chit chat with our pastor, filling out of forms, and back n' forths, with Vatican bureaucrats.

We should keep in mind that The Church's ultimate goal IS for people to be married in the Church, even as it's not in their interest to make it as easy as say....paying a parking ticket.

Fairsheet - did your wife have children from her previous marriage? If so, what is their status in the eyes of the church (don't answer if you don't want). Thanks
 
I find that an issue too, not that I care what "THE" Church teaches, since they have been wrong on so many things anyway.

But I have had friends who "annulled" marriages after having children.

Never asked what if anything that meant to "THE" Church.
 
Ok....... so here how it works....

You contact your catholic diocese office and tell them you want to start an anullment. They ask you a bunch of questions and send you some information. You must be actually legally divorced before you start this process.

They send you a packet of information that is about 5 - 6 pages of short answer questions. By the time I got done writing all my answers - my response was about 20 pages long. The whole point of an anullment is to find out if there was something "wrong" with the couple at the time they were married that would have prohibited that marriage from being a valid marriage according to cannon law.

So.... some of those things are... if you intended to contracept. Since cannon law requires you to be open to life - intending upon your marriage to use contraception would make your marriage invalid because according to the church unless you intended to do anything other than NFP - you shouldn't have been getting married in the first place. So, something was impeding you from giving valid consent. Other examples are things like if when you got married you didn't necessarily intend for it to last until death do you part. So, if you knew there were issues and still got married and figured well if it doesn't work - we can just divorce, that would NOT be valid consent because you were supposed to be intending on till death do you part. If one of you were being coerced - like there was a pregnancy and you felt like you HAD to get married - that could make the marriage in valid. In some cases not having enough pre-marriage counseling or classes so that you can claim you didn't understand the permanence of marriage may be a ground for annulment.

It is not "catholic divorce" and it doesn't make any kids illigitimate. It simply means that at the time of consent you did not or were not able to give complete consent.

So, you do your questionaire, then they assign you an advocate, or will essentially argue in person your "case" before the Tribunal - who are a bunch of cannon experts. Your advocate reviews your questionaire with you, determines what grounds he will ask for and writes some stuff. Meanwhile at least 3 "witnesses' will also get questionaires from the Diocese - they have to essentially fill out questions about you at the time of your marriage and their responses will hopefully back up the grounds that your advocate works out. Then your EX will also get a similiar form.

Then once they get everyone's info back ( they give you 30 days as the ex to respond then they just deem you non responsive) they move the annulment on and it is taken to the tribunal. Your advocate either in person or in writing argues for you, and someone else is appointed to defend the marriage.

Then the tribunal rules if there were sufficient grounds to declare your marriage null. Then if they do, it is given to the appeals board who reviews it, and if they agree - then you receive your annulment.

It is possible with cases where someone is married many times or there seems to be some other psychological issues, that the Tribunal will require that that person have additional counseling or pre-cana or that they have to have a waiting period etc.

The Church will not schedule your wedding until you have received your Declaration of Nullity.

Since, the Church automatically considers any subsequent marriages invalid by the sheer fact that they weren't eligible to be married for second or third or fourth time until they had their prior marriages anulled, annulling the subsequent marriages is considered procedural and while you have to fill out paperwork, etc you will receive the Declaration of Nullity for subsequent marriages without the whole dog and pony show listed above. So, you go through the big process the first time, and the other ones are just paperwork.

There are slight variations from Diocese to Diocese. They cost the same no matter who you are - around $500 bucks, BUT they will still do it if you say you can not pay.

Relatively speaking it is fairly easy to nullify a non-catholic's prior marriage. For one, they probably intended to contracept. They also generally aren't required to do any pre-marriage counseling or classes - so they can claim they weren't prepared and didn't get that marriage was for life - easier than a Catholic can. Because for Catholics, they are supposed to go to the pre-cana, etc, and where they have the permanence of marriage drilled into them - so its hard to claim that.

My anullment as a non-catholic to marry my Catholic DH took about 9 months. They average 18 months. But, I am super organized and anal and got my friends to get their stuff back right away and sort of kept on the process. The time was a bear. I probably spent 60 hours on my questionaire and research to make sure I understood what "grounds" were and following up on things.

ETA - if you are a Catholic who marries outside of the Church - like a justice of the peace wedding - your marriage is considered invalid - and that is a MUCH simpler quick process.

connie
 
Connie, thanks for all the information. You state that the children are not illigetimate, and that is the genesis of my original question so thanks for that. But I still don't understand how children who are products of a marriage that basically no longer exists can be legitimate since after the annulment their parents were considered never married. How does that work? Thanks!
 
what I don't understand is if the church can say yes to an annulment and basically it didn't happen, then why haven't they been able to say the kids have no standing in a marriage that is considered as not have happened.

The truth is money rules the world and it has bought the catholic church. There is no rhyme or reason as to why a person can get a divorce because they cheated on the previous wife and couldn't reconcile the difference.

The real part is it's just like religion, it's able to change to meet whatever it needs too. It is only true for the moment. If it needs to be something different than has been, all you have to do is change it. Other words, marriage in a religious sense is pure garbage. It's a thing for law and that is it.
 
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