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Private Prosecutors

Arkady

President
Putting aside the details of particular recent killings by police, there's a general structural problem that gives rise to the sense that justice isn't being served. Our system relies on the adversarial process. There's supposed to be a prosecutor who is intent on getting an indictment and then a conviction, and a defense lawyer who is intent on preventing those things. With an ordinary defendant, that system works. The prejudices of the prosecutor line up with his intended role in the system, so as long as he doesn't do something crooked (like hiding or forging evidence), there's some confidence that a jury will hear the best case that can be made in each direction, maximizing the probability of a just verdict. But what happens in cases where the prosecutor's prejudices are at odds with his intended role in the system?

This comes up most clearly where the prosecutor has a personal stake in the outcome. For example, we wouldn't trust a prosecutor to bring a good case if the defendant was his own son. We'd expect him to recuse himself so a more neutral prosecutor could take the helm. But there are also systematic prejudices for prosecutors, which aren't solved if one public prosecutor steps aside and another steps in -- for example, when the defendant is a political figure who may hold the keys to the prosecutor's professional future, or when the defendant is a police officer, with whom the prosecutor usually works closely on the same side. In the case of police officers, it will be damned tough for any prosecutor to set aside his friendly relationships with the defendant or with the defendant's close colleagues, and to ignore the difficulty the prosecutor is likely to have if these officers he has to work with in the future see him as having screwed over one of their brothers.

It strikes me that there could be a fairly simple solution to this. You could set up a system whereby certain qualified organizations that might usually find themselves providing defense lawyers (like the NAACP or the ACLU), could petition the court to replace the public prosecutor with a private one, which they could nominate, and which would need to be acceptable to the victim's family. These would be paid for the same way public defenders are, meaning the pay would be so low that it would discourage the organizations from pushing for private prosecutors, other than in cases where there's a strong reason to doubt the job a public one will do (since most of the cost would likely be out-of-pocket for them). An administrative judge could be asked to rule on that, with guidance set up to permit the private prosecutor in any case where there would be an appearance of conflict of interest for any public prosecutor, including cases against police officers.

This would free up public prosecutors from tpotentially having to sour their good working relationships with the police or other public officials. And it would give outcomes more public credibility, since there wouldn't be the impression that a prosecutor was intentionally under-performing in order to avoid an indictment or conviction.

Picture how this would have worked in the Darren Wilson case. Someone like the NAACP would have petitioned the administrative law judge for a private prosecutor, and they would have put forward the names of several qualified lawyers viewed as sympathetic to the black community. Possibly other organizations would do the same. The judge would have been compelled to grant the motion, based on clear guidance acknowledging the appearance of a conflict when prosecutors are called on to go after cops, and he'd have selected a prosecutor who would have been seen by the community as either impartial or even hostile to Wilson. If, after that, the Grand Jury had looked at the case that the prosecutor put together, and there had been a non-indictment, there would have been considerably less public outrage, since at least it wouldn't have seemed like the case had been fixed by the prosecution. Similarly, if there had been an indictment, but it had come back with a ruling that the accusations hadn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the public would have understood this was despite the prosecution doing its level best to make the strongest case possible.

I don't see why this wouldn't work. Just as we can have private lawyers handle the defense, we should be able to have private lawyers handle the prosecution. It would beat the current system, where you can end up having the prosecution and the defense essentially cooperating to avoid an indictment or a conviction.
 
Putting aside the details of particular recent killings by police, there's a general structural problem that gives rise to the sense that justice isn't being served. Our system relies on the adversarial process. There's supposed to be a prosecutor who is intent on getting an indictment and then a conviction, and a defense lawyer who is intent on preventing those things. With an ordinary defendant, that system works. The prejudices of the prosecutor line up with his intended role in the system, so as long as he doesn't do something crooked (like hiding or forging evidence), there's some confidence that a jury will hear the best case that can be made in each direction, maximizing the probability of a just verdict. But what happens in cases where the prosecutor's prejudices are at odds with his intended role in the system?

This comes up most clearly where the prosecutor has a personal stake in the outcome. For example, we wouldn't trust a prosecutor to bring a good case if the defendant was his own son. We'd expect him to recuse himself so a more neutral prosecutor could take the helm. But there are also systematic prejudices for prosecutors, which aren't solved if one public prosecutor steps aside and another steps in -- for example, when the defendant is a political figure who may hold the keys to the prosecutor's professional future, or when the defendant is a police officer, with whom the prosecutor usually works closely on the same side. In the case of police officers, it will be damned tough for any prosecutor to set aside his friendly relationships with the defendant or with the defendant's close colleagues, and to ignore the difficulty the prosecutor is likely to have if these officers he has to work with in the future see him as having screwed over one of their brothers.

It strikes me that there could be a fairly simple solution to this. You could set up a system whereby certain qualified organizations that might usually find themselves providing defense lawyers (like the NAACP or the ACLU), could petition the court to replace the public prosecutor with a private one, which they could nominate, and which would need to be acceptable to the victim's family. These would be paid for the same way public defenders are, meaning the pay would be so low that it would discourage the organizations from pushing for private prosecutors, other than in cases where there's a strong reason to doubt the job a public one will do (since most of the cost would likely be out-of-pocket for them). An administrative judge could be asked to rule on that, with guidance set up to permit the private prosecutor in any case where there would be an appearance of conflict of interest for any public prosecutor, including cases against police officers.

This would free up public prosecutors from tpotentially having to sour their good working relationships with the police or other public officials. And it would give outcomes more public credibility, since there wouldn't be the impression that a prosecutor was intentionally under-performing in order to avoid an indictment or conviction.

Picture how this would have worked in the Darren Wilson case. Someone like the NAACP would have petitioned the administrative law judge for a private prosecutor, and they would have put forward the names of several qualified lawyers viewed as sympathetic to the black community. Possibly other organizations would do the same. The judge would have been compelled to grant the motion, based on clear guidance acknowledging the appearance of a conflict when prosecutors are called on to go after cops, and he'd have selected a prosecutor who would have been seen by the community as either impartial or even hostile to Wilson. If, after that, the Grand Jury had looked at the case that the prosecutor put together, and there had been a non-indictment, there would have been considerably less public outrage, since at least it wouldn't have seemed like the case had been fixed by the prosecution. Similarly, if there had been an indictment, but it had come back with a ruling that the accusations hadn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the public would have understood this was despite the prosecution doing its level best to make the strongest case possible.

I don't see why this wouldn't work. Just as we can have private lawyers handle the defense, we should be able to have private lawyers handle the prosecution. It would beat the current system, where you can end up having the prosecution and the defense essentially cooperating to avoid an indictment or a conviction.

Because certainly the NAACP or the ACLU woild have no aganda of their own.

I can only imagine if the NAACP got to name the procecutor in the Brown case.
 
Because certainly the NAACP or the ACLU woild have no aganda of their own.

I can only imagine if the NAACP got to name the procecutor in the Brown case.
Of course they'd have an agenda. But that's the point. Their agenda would be to get a conviction, just as in ordinary cases the prosecution has an agenda of getting a conviction. The agenda of the defense would be to prevent that. That sets us up the adversarial process, and the jury can decide after having heard both sides of the case made by someone whose heart was in it.
 
Do you mean aside from the fact that it would create two separate justice systems, one for cops and one for everyone else?
No. There would be only once justice system. It would use the same courtrooms, the same judges, the same rules of criminal procedure, the same laws about sentencing, and the same prisons. All that would differ would be whether there was a public prosecutor or a private one. That isn't two justice systems any more than we have two justice systems today, when the poor use public defenders and the rich use private ones. And the private prosecutors wouldn't just be for cops. They'd be for any situation where there would be an apparent conflict of interest for any prosecutor. That would include cases against cops, certain types of politicians and officials, judges, and prosecutors as well. It would be for any case where a reasonable person could think public prosecutors are unlikely to be motivated to bring their "A Game."
 
Of course they'd have an agenda. But that's the point. Their agenda would be to get a conviction, just as in ordinary cases the prosecution has an agenda of getting a conviction. The agenda of the defense would be to prevent that. That sets us up the adversarial process, and the jury can decide after having heard both sides of the case made by someone whose heart was in it.

It would have to make it to a jury trial first.

Are you planning then on nationalizing all processes that are the purview of the state, or just the ones that may result in an unfavorable outcome for a given protected minority?
 
It would have to make it to a jury trial first.

Are you planning then on nationalizing all processes that are the purview of the state, or just the ones that may result in an unfavorable outcome for a given protected minority?
No. It wouldn't have to make it to a jury trial first. It would just have to trigger a grand jury to decide on the question of indictment. And it needn't be nationalized. The same reform would work if implemented at the state level (though, obviously, that would be less efficient).
 
No. It wouldn't have to make it to a jury trial first. It would just have to trigger a grand jury to decide on the question of indictment. And it needn't be nationalized. The same reform would work if implemented at the state level (though, obviously, that would be less efficient).

How would that be less efficient?

The Brown shooting did trigger a grand jury who were charged with determining several possible charges. Sometimes, there was just nothing illegal done by the shooter.
 
How would that be less efficient?

The Brown shooting did trigger a grand jury who were charged with determining several possible charges. Sometimes, there was just nothing illegal done by the shooter.
It would be inefficient in that there would be subtly differing rules from state to state, which would require more time to keep track of than a single, consistent set of standards.

In a prior life, I worked for a national insurance company. We had a whole group of employees whose job was to update 50+ sets of books to reflect the latest changes in insurance laws (one set for each state and US territory), to track those changes, and to recommend changes to our products as need to reflect those changes. Another group would update our forms and marketing materials as needed for each state or territory, cutting down on the economies of scale that could have been gained with a single printing of a larger number of materials. Then there would have to be piles of changes to the scripts our customer service people used to man the phone banks, so that when customers called in from various states, they could be given information for their state, which may differ. And when marketing was done on a national basis, as with national commercials, we had to include a bunch of confusing "fine print" language to accommodate any exceptions by state. It was a whole lot of inefficiency for no real benefit.

Implementing the reform I'm talking about at a state level is certainly something that can be done, but there will necessarily be similar inefficiencies involved, since advocacy groups will need to familiarize themselves with 50+ sets of laws, and probably retain local counsel, etc.
 
Of course they'd have an agenda. But that's the point. Their agenda would be to get a conviction, just as in ordinary cases the prosecution has an agenda of getting a conviction. The agenda of the defense would be to prevent that. That sets us up the adversarial process, and the jury can decide after having heard both sides of the case made by someone whose heart was in it.

Personally, I don't want ANYONE with an agenda. Certainly not to "get a conviction" They are supposed to be finding JUSTICE which may or may not be a conviction. The system has ALWASY been designed to give the accused the benefit of the doubt, first and foremost. His defense attorney is HIS advocate, but the state shouldn't be comeing at the process - with the intention to convict if they can make the conviction stick. It should be coming at the process as what is right and what is fair, and the defense attorney is the last resort to help protect that the prosecution is being fair with the defendant.

I subscribe to the theory that is better that 1000 guilty men go free rather than one innocent man go to jail. I don't want the deck stacked against the defendant, I would by far rather the deck is stacked in his favor. And, that be cop, or any other criminal on the streets. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a very high standard, I think we have lost sight of what that truly means. EVEN as we have fought over the most recent Wilson and Garner cases, there are so many different opinions that to me, there is plenty of reasonable doubt in both of those cases. So, I don't see the point of setting a grand jury system just to get indictments when NO ONE should be trying to put anyone in jail when there is the possibility of reasonable doubt.

connie
 
It would be inefficient in that there would be subtly differing rules from state to state, which would require more time to keep track of than a single, consistent set of standards.

In a prior life, I worked for a national insurance company. We had a whole group of employees whose job was to update 50+ sets of books to reflect the latest changes in insurance laws (one set for each state and US territory), to track those changes, and to recommend changes to our products as need to reflect those changes. Another group would update our forms and marketing materials as needed for each state or territory, cutting down on the economies of scale that could have been gained with a single printing of a larger number of materials. Then there would have to be piles of changes to the scripts our customer service people used to man the phone banks, so that when customers called in from various states, they could be given information for their state, which may differ. And when marketing was done on a national basis, as with national commercials, we had to include a bunch of confusing "fine print" language to accommodate any exceptions by state. It was a whole lot of inefficiency for no real benefit.

Implementing the reform I'm talking about at a state level is certainly something that can be done, but there will necessarily be similar inefficiencies involved, since advocacy groups will need to familiarize themselves with 50+ sets of laws, and probably retain local counsel, etc.

So, you mean inefficiencies in monitoring buy the government in order to make sure that the state is discharging its duties satisfactorally.

So you ARE proposing nationalizing what has always been and should be a state issue.
 
Personally, I don't want ANYONE with an agenda. Certainly not to "get a conviction" They are supposed to be finding JUSTICE which may or may not be a conviction. The system has ALWASY been designed to give the accused the benefit of the doubt, first and foremost. His defense attorney is HIS advocate, but the state shouldn't be comeing at the process - with the intention to convict if they can make the conviction stick. It should be coming at the process as what is right and what is fair, and the defense attorney is the last resort to help protect that the prosecution is being fair with the defendant.

I subscribe to the theory that is better that 1000 guilty men go free rather than one innocent man go to jail. I don't want the deck stacked against the defendant, I would by far rather the deck is stacked in his favor. And, that be cop, or any other criminal on the streets. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a very high standard, I think we have lost sight of what that truly means. EVEN as we have fought over the most recent Wilson and Garner cases, there are so many different opinions that to me, there is plenty of reasonable doubt in both of those cases. So, I don't see the point of setting a grand jury system just to get indictments when NO ONE should be trying to put anyone in jail when there is the possibility of reasonable doubt.

connie

But Arkady never did mention a defense attorney or any alternative voice in the grand jury process. What I am hearing from her is tha she wants a rigged procecutor to present evidence to a supposedly unbiased grand jury. And she considers that MORE fair than having the procecutor for the district present all the facts.

Nothing like politicizing the well being of the citizens.
 
Personally, I don't want ANYONE with an agenda. Certainly not to "get a conviction" They are supposed to be finding JUSTICE which may or may not be a conviction. The system has ALWASY been designed to give the accused the benefit of the doubt, first and foremost. His defense attorney is HIS advocate, but the state shouldn't be comeing at the process - with the intention to convict if they can make the conviction stick. It should be coming at the process as what is right and what is fair, and the defense attorney is the last resort to help protect that the prosecution is being fair with the defendant.

I subscribe to the theory that is better that 1000 guilty men go free rather than one innocent man go to jail. I don't want the deck stacked against the defendant, I would by far rather the deck is stacked in his favor. And, that be cop, or any other criminal on the streets. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a very high standard, I think we have lost sight of what that truly means. EVEN as we have fought over the most recent Wilson and Garner cases, there are so many different opinions that to me, there is plenty of reasonable doubt in both of those cases. So, I don't see the point of setting a grand jury system just to get indictments when NO ONE should be trying to put anyone in jail when there is the possibility of reasonable doubt.

connie
As a practical matter, prosecutors are motivated to get convictions, in most cases. It's how they're measured, and it's typically the key to career advancement. Pretty much any time a former US attorney, state AG, or other kind of prosecutor is running for office, they brag about all the convictions they got. See, for example, the way Rudy Giuliani sold himself when running for mayor. I can see your argument that prosecutors shouldn't be thinking that way, but they do, and our system depends on it, since without somebody who has a good motivation to present the best case for indictment/conviction, there can be miscarriages of justice, because the jury never even really hears the case against the defendant, only the case in his favor.

If you favor neutral prosecutors, as a way to stack deck even more heavily in favor of defendants, that's fine. But then we should do it consistently, by finding a way to make prosecutors neutral in all cases. In the current situation, we have what amounts to two different systems. For most alleged crooks, we have a system that's built on the adversarial process between a prosecutor who wants an indictment/conviction and a defense attorney who wants to prevent those things. But for certain alleged crooks, including cops, we have a system that lacks that adversarial process, since it's a show trial with both a prosecutor and a defense lawyer wanting a non-indictment or non-conviction. That should be fully expected to result in much lower indictment and conviction rates for police wrong-doers than for defendants generally, which isn't consistent with an impartial ideal of justice, and which reduces the deterrent against police abuse.

As for the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, you're correct that it's meant to be a very hard standard. But that's not the standard for an indictment. If the evidence, in those cases, was somewhere between "probable cause" and "beyond a reasonable doubt," what should have happened is that there should have been a finding in favor of indictment, then a full trial, then a finding of not guilty. In order for there not even to be an indictment, the evidence should have been so weak as not even to satisfy the low "probable cause" standard. I believe that if there'd been a prosecutor willing to bring his "A Game" to the case, as he would for a non-police defendant, there was more than enough evidence to get over the "probable cause" hurdle.
 
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So, you mean inefficiencies in monitoring buy the government in order to make sure that the state is discharging its duties satisfactorally.

So you ARE proposing nationalizing what has always been and should be a state issue.
I'm not proposing nationalizing it. I'm proposing reforming at the state level, since that's politically more viable. Nationalizing it would, of course, be more efficient, but since it's not politically viable, I'm not proposing that.
 
But Arkady never did mention a defense attorney or any alternative voice in the grand jury process. What I am hearing from her is tha she wants a rigged procecutor to present evidence to a supposedly unbiased grand jury. And she considers that MORE fair than having the procecutor for the district present all the facts.

Nothing like politicizing the well being of the citizens.
No. I want a defense attorney, too, even at the grand jury stage. Sorry I wasn't clear on that. I understand that the rules would need to be worked out to accommodate that defense role in cases where there was a private prosecutor, but it seems like something that could be handled fairly easily. As I mentioned, I want an adversarial process, where the prosecutor is putting together the best honest case that can be made for indictment/conviction, and the defense lawyer is putting together the best honest case that can be made in the other direction, the judge is in a neutral role policing the standards of criminal procedure and providing neutral jury instructions, and the grand jury/jury is also in a neutral role, deciding whether the standard of proof has been satisfied.
 
Putting aside the details of particular recent killings by police, there's a general structural problem that gives rise to the sense that justice isn't being served. Our system relies on the adversarial process. There's supposed to be a prosecutor who is intent on getting an indictment and then a conviction, and a defense lawyer who is intent on preventing those things. With an ordinary defendant, that system works. The prejudices of the prosecutor line up with his intended role in the system, so as long as he doesn't do something crooked (like hiding or forging evidence), there's some confidence that a jury will hear the best case that can be made in each direction, maximizing the probability of a just verdict. But what happens in cases where the prosecutor's prejudices are at odds with his intended role in the system?

This comes up most clearly where the prosecutor has a personal stake in the outcome. For example, we wouldn't trust a prosecutor to bring a good case if the defendant was his own son. We'd expect him to recuse himself so a more neutral prosecutor could take the helm. But there are also systematic prejudices for prosecutors, which aren't solved if one public prosecutor steps aside and another steps in -- for example, when the defendant is a political figure who may hold the keys to the prosecutor's professional future, or when the defendant is a police officer, with whom the prosecutor usually works closely on the same side. In the case of police officers, it will be damned tough for any prosecutor to set aside his friendly relationships with the defendant or with the defendant's close colleagues, and to ignore the difficulty the prosecutor is likely to have if these officers he has to work with in the future see him as having screwed over one of their brothers.

It strikes me that there could be a fairly simple solution to this. You could set up a system whereby certain qualified organizations that might usually find themselves providing defense lawyers (like the NAACP or the ACLU), could petition the court to replace the public prosecutor with a private one, which they could nominate, and which would need to be acceptable to the victim's family. These would be paid for the same way public defenders are, meaning the pay would be so low that it would discourage the organizations from pushing for private prosecutors, other than in cases where there's a strong reason to doubt the job a public one will do (since most of the cost would likely be out-of-pocket for them). An administrative judge could be asked to rule on that, with guidance set up to permit the private prosecutor in any case where there would be an appearance of conflict of interest for any public prosecutor, including cases against police officers.

This would free up public prosecutors from tpotentially having to sour their good working relationships with the police or other public officials. And it would give outcomes more public credibility, since there wouldn't be the impression that a prosecutor was intentionally under-performing in order to avoid an indictment or conviction.

Picture how this would have worked in the Darren Wilson case. Someone like the NAACP would have petitioned the administrative law judge for a private prosecutor, and they would have put forward the names of several qualified lawyers viewed as sympathetic to the black community. Possibly other organizations would do the same. The judge would have been compelled to grant the motion, based on clear guidance acknowledging the appearance of a conflict when prosecutors are called on to go after cops, and he'd have selected a prosecutor who would have been seen by the community as either impartial or even hostile to Wilson. If, after that, the Grand Jury had looked at the case that the prosecutor put together, and there had been a non-indictment, there would have been considerably less public outrage, since at least it wouldn't have seemed like the case had been fixed by the prosecution. Similarly, if there had been an indictment, but it had come back with a ruling that the accusations hadn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the public would have understood this was despite the prosecution doing its level best to make the strongest case possible.

I don't see why this wouldn't work. Just as we can have private lawyers handle the defense, we should be able to have private lawyers handle the prosecution. It would beat the current system, where you can end up having the prosecution and the defense essentially cooperating to avoid an indictment or a conviction.
The remedy is a civil case.

Is there a law that says a criminal case can't follow a successful civil case? I imagine being forced to testify in a civil case could be used against you in a criminal case.
 
The remedy is a civil case.

Is there a law that says a criminal case can't follow a successful civil case? I imagine being forced to testify in a civil case could be used against you in a criminal case.
A civil case doesn't put a killer behind bars.

I'm not sure what you mean about being forced to testify in a civil case being used against you in a criminal case.
 
A civil case doesn't put a killer behind bars.

I'm not sure what you mean about being forced to testify in a civil case being used against you in a criminal case.

1) I'm asking a lawyer (you) a simple question, if a won civil case has ever precipitated the prosecution of a criminal case?

2) Can a judge compel you to answer questions in a civil case unlike he can in a criminal case? Which seems to be the case because not answering questions can count against you when you plead the 5th.

Refusal to testify in a civil case[edit]
While defendants are entitled to assert the privilege against compelled self-incrimination in a civil court case, there are consequences to the assertion of the privilege in such an action.

The Supreme Court has held that "the Fifth Amendment does not forbid adverse inferences against parties to civil actions when they refuse to testify in response to probative evidence offered against them." Baxter v. Palmigiano,[51] "[A]s Mr. Justice Brandeis declared, speaking for a unanimous court in the Tod case, 'Silence is often evidence of the most persuasive character.'"[52] "'Failure to contest an assertion ... is considered evidence of acquiescence ... if it would have been natural under the circumstances to object to the assertion in question.'"[53]

In Baxter, the state was entitled to an adverse inference against Palmigiano because of the evidence against him and his assertion of the Fifth Amendment privilege.

Some civil cases are considered "criminal cases" for the purposes of the Fifth Amendment. In Boyd v. United States, the U.S. Supreme Court stated that "A proceeding to forfeit a person's goods for an offence against the laws, though civil in form, and whether in rem or in personam, is a "criminal case" within the meaning of that part of the Fifth Amendment which declares that no person "shall be compelled, in any criminal case, to be a witness against himself."[54]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_...nstitution#Refusal_to_testify_in_a_civil_case
 
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