Soooo
- Thread starter nfp guy
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fairsheet
Senator
I've always interpreted the "don't pray in public" admonishment, in the vein of my meme above. We must not express our faith in a way that reflects negatively on our faith, either by making people feel uncomfortable, excluded, or otherwise resentful of our God.
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that there is something else unrelated that's brought the Catholic family to the edge of leaving and they don't want to say what it is, so they use the prayer as the "reason". I am not Catholic but my son's wife is, and we have sat at a table with her family and her mother said grace and........Catholic "grace" is exactly the same as mine would be.
I have no idea what the real problem could be, but I think you are missing something. Can you speak with the parents that are about to leave the group alone? Maybe they will be able to talk to you about it away from the group. Apparently it's something they don't feel comfortable being open about so it may be very personal and sensitive.
That's my thought.
I have no idea what the real problem could be, but I think you are missing something. Can you speak with the parents that are about to leave the group alone? Maybe they will be able to talk to you about it away from the group. Apparently it's something they don't feel comfortable being open about so it may be very personal and sensitive.
That's my thought.
888888
Council Member
In my world I just fake it. I don't care for a phony prayer or giving thanks to God as something that has much meaning, other than some people have to show others that they are very religious.
But really how you lead your life is a lot more important than saying thanks to god at dinner, or because you hit a home run.
God put you here to live your life as you see fit, not as he saw fit. God makes nothing happen and allows everything to happen.
You can look around and see all the horrible things that happen to good people while at the same time many good things happen to what most of us would say are real ass-holes. To me God wants you to lead your life as you see fit, and might hope that your heart is your guiding light.
But really how you lead your life is a lot more important than saying thanks to god at dinner, or because you hit a home run.
God put you here to live your life as you see fit, not as he saw fit. God makes nothing happen and allows everything to happen.
You can look around and see all the horrible things that happen to good people while at the same time many good things happen to what most of us would say are real ass-holes. To me God wants you to lead your life as you see fit, and might hope that your heart is your guiding light.
NightSwimmer
Senator
When the members of a group seated at a table in a public restaurant all assume a particular pose, and then proceed to vocalize aloud a ritual prayer, are they seeking to appear pious before men?
I don't know. Who am I to judge?
I'm just curious about how it became a Christian tradition to say grace to begin with. So far as I know, Biblical teaching doesn't specifically require it. It seems to be a common ritual within many different cultures and religious traditions. I suspect that the custom really has nothing specific to do with Christianity, but was incorporated into the faith because it was already a common practice before Christianity came about.
Jesus did bless food in the presence of his followers when he performed miracles to multiply the loaves, but that's not praying in public -- that's praying before a congregation. Different situation, in my opinion. I've never seen where the Bible advocates truly public prayer. I have always viewed such rituals as false prayers, but that's just my own personal opinion based upon my own understanding of Scripture.
Still, as Red Cloud said, I'm not rude to those who prefer to say grace. It doesn't bother me at all.
fairsheet
Senator
In terms of your first paragraph...I (speaking only for myself) would say that that family absolutely IS running afoul of the admonishment against prayer in public. Without going into detail, my guess is that overall impression said family would leave with the other patrons as regards their faith, would be a net negative. Admittedly...unless the other patrons had "issues", it wouldn't be a very significant negative!....but, it'd still be a net negative.
If that family was interested in leaving a postive impression with the other patrons, they might consider say......inviting that panhandler outside the front door, to sit down and eat with them.
NightSwimmer
Senator
@NS #25: Re: restaurant prayer. Doesn't that depend on a lot? Like, how loud or do they make a big show of getting ready to pray? I think it can be done quietly and unobtrusively so as not to attract attention. On the flip side, why should one not say a quiet blessing just because one is out in public? Presumably one is no less grateful for the food because it is not served in a private home. I suspect that perhaps this was more common in the past.
I see what you are saying about the Jesus' blessing, but while I think you could stretch that situation into the people present being a congregation, they are out in the open in a public place, not even in a building.
I see what you are saying about the Jesus' blessing, but while I think you could stretch that situation into the people present being a congregation, they are out in the open in a public place, not even in a building.
@fairsheet #26: But the praying family is not interested in making a positive impression with others. they are showing gratitude for the food they are about to eat. As I said to NS above, is the family less grateful for food served in a restaurant than at home? While I think one has to be conscious of one's actions, nor can you let others' possible reactions dictate your behavior. Again, I think there is a spectrum of possible behaviors, and it is not too hard to determine what would be attention seeking and what isn't.
fairsheet
Senator
I agree that there's a spectrum of possible behaviors. That's why I declined going into detail. Nevertheless, I see "Grace" as going well beyond just "saying thank you to some old white-bearded man sitting up on a cloud". Saying "Grace" imho, should be considered in a much broader vein, especially if done in public. It should be thought of as an opportunity for positive "testimony". And...to the extent any prayer get to thinking something along the lines of, "Why should I care what anyone else thinks?", he should think twice.
NightSwimmer
Senator
Aren't you also grateful to God for the fuel when you fill up the tank of your automobile? Do you say grace for that? If not, then why not?
If Matthew's admonition against praying in public does not apply to public prayer, then what does it apply to?
@NS #32: Re: gas fill-up: Ooooo, nice, very Ignatian, in the "finding God in all things" sort of way. I think a prayer of gratitude before a meal, as compared to filling up of the gas tank, is probably because the former is somewhat more . . . elemental; on the other hand, if the oil tank in the house was on empty, and some benefactor paid for an oil delivery, I imagine the recipient would say a prayer of thanksgiving.
Re: public prayer. Again, I think the referenced admonition, by its own terms, does not apply to all public prayer, but only that done out of the desire for others to think the person doing the prayer is oh so holy - - is that vanity, or the desire for approval? Giving alms - - good; giving alms so that others see you giving alms and will think you are holy - - not good. I think it is intention in this matter that Jesus is addressing, and looking at the text, I do not see how one can come to any other conclusion: " . . . for they love to stand and pray in the synagogue and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men . . . "; see also the first verse in the chapter: "Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven". Both directives are specifically pertaining to the desire to be seen by others, not the mere act of public prayer.
Now, as fairsheet has alluded to, good advice in any event for one seeking to pray in any manner in public: Am I doing this to be faithful to God and show genuine gratitude, or am I doing this so others will notice me? If the focus is on God, not me, I think it is OK.
You know the next time I fill up the tank I will think of you, NS, and offer a little prayer!
Re: public prayer. Again, I think the referenced admonition, by its own terms, does not apply to all public prayer, but only that done out of the desire for others to think the person doing the prayer is oh so holy - - is that vanity, or the desire for approval? Giving alms - - good; giving alms so that others see you giving alms and will think you are holy - - not good. I think it is intention in this matter that Jesus is addressing, and looking at the text, I do not see how one can come to any other conclusion: " . . . for they love to stand and pray in the synagogue and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men . . . "; see also the first verse in the chapter: "Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven". Both directives are specifically pertaining to the desire to be seen by others, not the mere act of public prayer.
Now, as fairsheet has alluded to, good advice in any event for one seeking to pray in any manner in public: Am I doing this to be faithful to God and show genuine gratitude, or am I doing this so others will notice me? If the focus is on God, not me, I think it is OK.
You know the next time I fill up the tank I will think of you, NS, and offer a little prayer!
Does the picture come through? http://bp2.blogger.com/_coiqgshAu1Q/R0UhAkLNxpI/AAAAAAAABE4/eDp5y3VpNrA/s1600-h/rockwel2.jpg
fairsheet
Senator
As I've said, we always did the Catholic "Grace" at dinner time, complete with the sign of the cross before and after. It was fun when one of us had a friend over for dinner. I'll betcha at least half of 'em watched us and tried to mimic the sign of the cross at the end. I see that as a "no harm, no foul" thing.
NightSwimmer
Senator
I agree nfp guy. Intention is the key. Only the person offering the prayer can know their true motivation. That said, I find it unfortunate that you have encountered a disagreement over how best to handle this issue. I hope that you guys can come to a reasonable compromise.
Have a great weekend.
Best Regards,
NS
Have a great weekend.
Best Regards,
NS
degsme
Council Member
The problem here NFP is that the Grace is being said by one of the authority figures: towit your wife. If she were not involved in any sort of Loco Parentis role with the other kids, then this would not be a problem. But since she is, it is a problem every bit as much as a public school teacher engaging in his/her prayer rituals publically before the students.
Now as homeschoolers you can do what you want - but the ISSUE is that of authority acting in a manner that is indistinguishable from other authority behaviours.
IOW when your wife says "open your books to chapter X" or "hand in your homework"... for a child this is indistinguishable from "bow your head and say Grace".
Now as homeschoolers you can do what you want - but the ISSUE is that of authority acting in a manner that is indistinguishable from other authority behaviours.
IOW when your wife says "open your books to chapter X" or "hand in your homework"... for a child this is indistinguishable from "bow your head and say Grace".
degsme
Council Member
Jesus was in no compelling authority/loco parentis role over those attending. Your wife and the other adults at the Homeschooling ARE. Thus any acts by one of the children that contravenes here actions is a form of disobedience.
You essentially are saying that its ok for them to be disobedient during Grace but not disobedient if she tells them to be quite. That's a fine distinction that even many adults have difficulty in recognizing.
