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The Second Amendment

How about the 'weapons in common use'?

No point in having a stick if the guy trying to break in has a gun, is there?

Knives are in more "common use" than guns. If there is a law against certain types of weapons, those weapons wouldn't be in "common use" unless a lot of people were breaking the law.

"Weapons in common use" is a claim used to justify assault weapons, yet those weapons are "in common use" by whom to do what?

It makes a good argument for "weapons in common use" by those in service to "the common defense" and a better argument for those people being "the people" to have a right to keep and bear arms BECAUSE they do so in "the common defense".

All this means is all it does mean, that no government entity subject to the U.S. Constitution can take away guns from those in service to "the common defense" of their state or of their nation. That would include a common defense of their state against a tyrannical federal government and that "common defense" could reasonably be better expected to be one that could hold up against a federal government gone tyrannical than as Alexander Hamilton stated it in The Federalist #28, "The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair..... In this situation there must be a peculiar coincidence of circumstances to insure success to the popular resistance."

When it comes to planting one's front lawn with Claymores or other types of anti-pesonnel mines and mounting their front porches with M134 miniguns and variants for "self defense", there is no right to doing that that cannot be infringed upon, because it is not in service to the common defense and endangers, not promotes, the general welfare of the neighbors and neighborhood.
 
No. The people can only act through their elected representatives. The people can not take the law into their own hands. That is the difference.

California is an exception through its initiative process, a process that led to Prop. 8 for example. The initiative process is an effort at direct democracy, and it's a bit of a failure in my opinion.

http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_j.htm

Apparently I have convinced only one here. The rest will learn for themselves the true nature and source of their rights when they have need to enforce them. (They will find they have need of a legal basis for them - quoting John Locke will get them nowhere in court!) God-given rights are only good in heaven; natural rights are no good in court; and in the real world, one need have recourse to the law.

I think you've argued your case well. I believe.
 
I learned that from my modern social philosophy class. My "epiphany" came, when I comprehended that it's impossible for us to "own" legal property, unless SOCIETY issues us the deed!
 
No law can stop someone from doing anything they would like to do, if they are not stopped before they do it.

A law against murder cannot stop you from murdering before someone can physically stop you if you wish to murder someone. If you have a right to murder, you cannot be held accountable for doing something you have a right to do, if you are not granted a right to murder, then you can be held accountable for that which you have no right to do and if you act violently in such a way someone might reasonably and universally believe you were going to murder, they can intervene to stop you with a proportional force, the full force of which if not known if you have not yet murdered another. If they fend you off with a force equal to the force you are perceived to be using, but only with the intent to fend your force off, they have a right to NOT be accountable for harm that comes to you if harm comes to you by way of their fending your force off since you were the initial agressor and they, merely reacting to keep themselves from your force damaging them. On an international and wartime level this becomes a tricky and delicate matter of "proportional force". If person or nation B has a beef with person or nation A, will person or nation A pinching person/nation B give license for P/N B to kill P/N A or to retaliate or avenge at all, if not only to respond proportionally?
 
I learned that from my modern social philosophy class. My "epiphany" came, when I comprehended that it's impossible for us to "own" legal property, unless SOCIETY issues us the deed!

Anyone can think they own property, but they only own it by some proof of ownership and that is administered by the governing laws. In addition, laws from a governing entity mostly the same, are the ones that will defend your proof of ownership, since they also governed your acquisition or proof or acquisition.

In addition, does one own the air above their real estate or the water running through it suface or subsurface? How about when rains wash the soil across their property boundary?

We should all be aware of why these questions are important. Is one really free to do things on their "property" that would pollute the air or water that then flows off their property and over or to the property of others? Do they have a right to contaminate ground or surface water while it travels inside their boundaries and not be held accountable for any harm that contamination does to those it those it them flows to?
 
California is an exception through its initiative process, a process that led to Prop. 8 for example. The initiative process is an effort at direct democracy, and it's a bit of a failure in my opinion.

http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_j.htm




I think you've argued your case well. I believe.

I'm not sure things like propositions do not fall in the same category as statewide referendums where issues are voted by the people, to be of such importance, they want more of a direct vote, that still includes an eligibility to vote. I'm not sure that a "direct democracy" involves interest in having a voice and vote in a matter and voting, regardless of whether one has any eligibility to vote or not. California may indulge in more referendum type votes, but is not the only one to use them.
 
Anyone can think they own property, but they only own it by some proof of ownership and that is administered by the governing laws. In addition, laws from a governing entity mostly the same, are the ones that will defend your proof of ownership, since they also governed your aquisition or proof or acquisition

One of my better friends is a title searcher. He loves it.

There have recently been some articles regarding squatting, i.e. adverse possession in Oakland. A group won their battle, having held possession for years, with the required active use. Those laws vary greatly...it's just about impossible to pull off successfully in Maryland. Takes 20 years...
 
I'm not sure things like propositions do not fall in the same category as statewide referendums where issues are voted by the people, to be of such importance, they want more of a direct vote, that still includes an eligibility to vote. I'm not sure that a "direct democracy" involves interest in having a voice and vote in a matter and voting, regardless of whether one has any eligibility to vote or not. California may indulge in more referendum type votes, but is not the only one to use them.

There may be other states that have an initiative process. Oregon does I believe. Any person in California can propose a law given enough signatures, and every eligible voter gets to vote on that law. That sounds pretty close to direct democracy to me.

Direct democracy is often used to describe the Athenian democratic model, and in Athens only a certain portion of the populace was accorded a vote. In the end, direct democracy is what led to Athens' downfall.
 
One of my better friends is a title searcher. He loves it.

There have recently been some articles regarding squatting, i.e. adverse possession in Oakland. A group won their battle, having held possession for years, with the required active use. Those laws vary greatly...it's just about impossible to pull off successfully in Maryland. Takes 20 years...

Ja, but there had to be a law that gives people a right to claim the land through adverse possesion. We're ruled by the society we live in, for sure, but as a society with a representative government, we get a chance at selecting the majority that will make the rules and even if the choices we prefer do not gain majority support, in reality we lose a lot less than people of nations who have no chance at all to select the majority and as long as all parties respect the system we all live under, we all have a shot at changing where the majority lies the next time a prescribed vote comes around or by some other process, like conviction of impeachable offenses or other grounds for removal of elected representatives from office.
 
H. Muir~
When you reply to a post on your thread, it is not clear who the post is directed to. One of the moderators can explain better than I how to reply more specifically.

God Speed,
David
 
There may be other states that have an initiative process. Oregon does I believe. Any person in California can propose a law given enough signatures, and every eligible voter gets to vote on that law. That sounds pretty close to direct democracy to me.

Direct democracy is often used to describe the Athenian democratic model, and in Athens only a certain portion of the populace was accorded a vote. In the end, direct democracy is what led to Athens' downfall.

Please don't quote me BP, because I could be wrong or have some specifics wrong, but the way I understand it
I think there are obvious problems, if not only logistically, of allowing a direct democracy in trying to manage what is voted on and who is eligible to vote. I was taught that in a direct democracy, all it took was an interest in voting on whatever, through whatever means, became a recognized votable issue and then exercising that vote. I wouldn't describe only a portion of any populace being accorded a vote as being "democratic" since even before the voting starts, a portion of the populace has already been excluded. I could be wrong.

In addition, there has to be some means to determine whether an issue rises to the level of a need (and cost) for a statewide or nationwide referendum where such would be provided for. A petition with w minimum amount of signatures of some form of vote to determine whether to vote on an issue is done. It's not like anyone of us going up to the capitol building and saying to whatever powers that be, that we wish to have a statewide vote on an issue that's been on our mind and our wish becomes their command. For logistics alone, there has to be some level of criteria that is met even to trigger a vote on whether to vote on an issue.

The downfall of the use of a direct democracy should be easy to see, especially where populations grow to numbers much larger. There are places in this country where direct democracy processes and mechanics can still work, but at much lower levels of government, mostly or all local. A community of 700 people likely does not need a full blown representaive government on the scale of state and federal governments, logistically it is easier to hear all those that want to participate and to vote on at least some local issues rather than have a city council or a village board of selectmen make all or most of the decisons. Town Meeting Days all over New England are about as close to a direct democracy as one might get in this nation, but they only work because of and under certain limited circumstances.

Great Britain even saw a need for change from a monarchy to a more democratic form of government and an eventual form of an indirect representative democracy. It still survives as a nation, even if just a shadow of the size of its once geographic dominion. Logistically it recognized, before it was too late that logistically, the further a dominion became spred, the thinner the cover of that spread and eventually holding the spread in place would become overwhelming and destructive to its survival. The same with other surviving nations who also at one time in history, represented much larger geographical empires.

I wouldn't prefer a direct democracy on a scale any larger than several thousand people at most, simply because of the logisitics and cost for administering a vote every time a petition met the criteria for calling a vote on a vote or a direct vote in the issue. If a state has a propensity to solving issues through statewide referedums and proposals, it make it hard to do much of anything without using that method and if it grows as a means to decide legislation then it will eventually bog down and overwhelm any indirect and representative democratic means for determining legislation. I don't know for sure, but I think most, perhaps all states have a provision for their residents to bring a referendum forward by petition to those that receive such petitions and there is little choice to refuse a petition properly executed.
 
Knives are in more "common use" than guns. If there is a law against certain types of weapons, those weapons wouldn't be in "common use" unless a lot of people were breaking the law.

"Weapons in common use" is a claim used to justify assault weapons, yet those weapons are "in common use" by whom to do what?

No, weapons in common use is a term of art dating back about 80 years in SCOTUS dicta.

It makes a good argument for "weapons in common use" by those in service to "the common defense" and a better argument for those people being "the people" to have a right to keep and bear arms BECAUSE they do so in "the common defense".


There is no linkage between common defense and the individual right to keep and bear arms.

Al
l this means is all it does mean, that no government entity subject to the U.S. Constitution can take away guns from those in service to "the common defense" of their state or of their nation.

Untrue.
 
The "individual right to keep and bear arms" is stated where in the Constitution?

Individuals in service to "the common defense" are the ones that must maintain a right as individuals to keep and bear arms in order to fulfill their duty and service to "the common defense". If one is not in service or duty to "the common defense" there is no relation to any right for them to keep and bear arms or "weapons in common use". for that purpose.

"in common use" refers to what use?
 
Yes but, that doesn't change the essential gist. Even in the case of the squatters, they prevailed upon the courts (society) to issue them a deed.
 
Please don't ask me for the exact cite and wording, as I'm not even remotely a constitutional scholar. But, I'm pretty sure our Constitution prevents the guvmint (society) from taking our property without just compensation (paying us for it). But, it absolutely does NOT prevent the guvmint from taking our property WITH just compensation!

I think a lot of people are convinced that they retain the "right" to give up their property or not and they they also have an individual right to determine what's "just compensation". They're wrong. And as hard as this is for some to wrap their minds around, these principles aren't any different when the guvmint (again, society) chooses to take private property (with just compensation), on behalf of another private entity.

The BIG difference comes when one private entity covets the property of another, withOUT the specific buy-in of the local societal power. In that case, the former private must reach accomodation with the latter private.
 
Individuals in service to "the common defense" are the ones that must maintain a right as individuals to keep and bear arms in order to fulfill their duty and service to "the common defense". If one is not in service or duty to "the common defense" there is no relation to any right for them to keep and bear arms or "weapons in common use". for that purpose.

"in common use" refers to what use?

You raise an essential point as to "common defense". Some are convinced that the only reason societies form (as it relates to defense) is so they might defend themselves (the society). BUT, that's only half of the equation. The other half, is that for the sake of a functioning society, the individual is conceding his right of defense, to the society.

As for instance, we don't allow the individual, or his posse, to invade Canada. On the other hand, this proviso doesn't necessarily preclude the individual from defending say....his home, with a gun. Society CAN decide, as ours has for the most part, that as one element of society's defending itself, individuals may own guns.

In simpler terms, I think society MAY allow guns to individuals OR disallow them, at its whim. Funny thing is....even Heller v. D.C. affirms this for the most part.
 
Yes but, that doesn't change the essential gist. Even in the case of the squatters, they prevailed upon the courts (society) to issue them a deed.

Absolutely. My point was there are laws that need to followed even in the case of adverse possession. One cannot merely claim ownership after a short period of time of squatting, one must actually use and maintain the property according to local laws...and yes, that includes a trip to court.
 
I think some people simply don't comprehend this concept, because they're convinced that they and their arsenals are sufficient to defend what they perceive as theirs.
 
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