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Balanced Budget Amendment

Arkady

President
Given the possibility of a Constitutional Convention to pass a balanced budget amendment, would you favor it?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._teaming_up_to_call_a_new_constitutional.html

For me, it comes down to the details. I think it's a popular idea among conservatives because they see it stacking the deck in favor of their own vision of a small, weak government. Basically, pass popular tax cuts and then, when the columns don't add up, automatic spending cuts kick in, even if the cuts are unpopular enough that they'd never have passed democratically.

However, it would be theoretically possible to set the idea up to stack the deck in the opposite direction. Instead of automatic spending cuts kicking in to bring spending down to revenues, automatic tax hikes could kick in to bring revenues up to spending. Understandably, the conservatives wouldn't like this, because liberals could use it to bring about larger, stronger government: pass popular spending programs, then when the columns don't add up, automatic tax increases kick in, even if these increases are unpopular enough that they'd never have passed democratically.

In theory, you could middle-ground it. In the event of a mismatch between revenues and spending, automatic spending cuts and automatic tax hikes both kick in, designed to meet half-way. That way the amendment could not be used to stack the deck either way -- there'd be a genuinely democratic fight about the proper size and role of government.

Another issue is how you deal with situations where a deficit really is needed. For example, what about wartime? Should we really discipline ourselves with "pay as you go" during a war? We'd never have won independence or survived the war of 1812 or preserved the union with that rule. If we're unable to borrow and adversaries are, we're at a distinct disadvantage. Yet, you wouldn't want wars that aren't existential threats to create a blank checkbook. We blew trillions of dollars on a dumb whim in Iraq, and a little fiscal discipline to steer us away from that mistake would have been nice.

Standard economic theory also argues you should run a deficit during recessions and the first part of recoveries, and then offset that by running surpluses in other times. And demographic bulges can create situations where you might want to borrow in some periods and run surpluses in others. Special buying opportunities also would justify borrowing (e.g., to finance the Louisiana Purchase or the purchase of Alaska), and so could other investments that would create long-term returns.

One idea to deal with all this would be some sort of super-majority voting rules allowing for deficits and surpluses. But, that keeps it a highly politicized matter. You might instead create a mechanism for some nonpartisan group, insulated from day-to-day politics, to set the yearly deficit or surplus based on various factors, similar to how the Fed sets money supply. However, given the way right-wing heads explode when Fed control of money supply is mentioned, I doubt that will be a popular idea.

What do others here think?
 
Given the possibility of a Constitutional Convention to pass a balanced budget amendment, would you favor it?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._teaming_up_to_call_a_new_constitutional.html

For me, it comes down to the details. I think it's a popular idea among conservatives because they see it stacking the deck in favor of their own vision of a small, weak government. Basically, pass popular tax cuts and then, when the columns don't add up, automatic spending cuts kick in, even if the cuts are unpopular enough that they'd never have passed democratically.

However, it would be theoretically possible to set the idea up to stack the deck in the opposite direction. Instead of automatic spending cuts kicking in to bring spending down to revenues, automatic tax hikes could kick in to bring revenues up to spending. Understandably, the conservatives wouldn't like this, because liberals could use it to bring about larger, stronger government: pass popular spending programs, then when the columns don't add up, automatic tax increases kick in, even if these increases are unpopular enough that they'd never have passed democratically.

In theory, you could middle-ground it. In the event of a mismatch between revenues and spending, automatic spending cuts and automatic tax hikes both kick in, designed to meet half-way. That way the amendment could not be used to stack the deck either way -- there'd be a genuinely democratic fight about the proper size and role of government.

Another issue is how you deal with situations where a deficit really is needed. For example, what about wartime? Should we really discipline ourselves with "pay as you go" during a war? We'd never have won independence or survived the war of 1812 or preserved the union with that rule. If we're unable to borrow and adversaries are, we're at a distinct disadvantage. Yet, you wouldn't want wars that aren't existential threats to create a blank checkbook. We blew trillions of dollars on a dumb whim in Iraq, and a little fiscal discipline to steer us away from that mistake would have been nice.

Standard economic theory also argues you should run a deficit during recessions and the first part of recoveries, and then offset that by running surpluses in other times. And demographic bulges can create situations where you might want to borrow in some periods and run surpluses in others.

One idea to deal with all this would be some sort of super-majority voting rules allowing for deficits and surpluses. But, that keeps it a highly politicized matter. You might instead create a mechanism for some nonpartisan group, insulated from day-to-day politics, to set the yearly deficit or surplus based on various factors, similar to how the Fed sets money supply. However, given the way right-wing heads explode when Fed control of money supply is mentioned, I doubt that will be a popular idea.

What do others here think?

Like you said, the devils in the details.

Everyone likes to bitch and moan about runaway government spending, and complain about the federal deficit but turn around and continue to vote for their politicians that continue writing budgets that spend more money than they take in. Blame it on the the conservative whipping boy, welfare spending, or the bloated military budget, or earmarks.

Everybody likes to be the hero and cut taxes, but they lack the integrity to cut spending across the board to offset the decrease in revenue.
 
a leftists dream - automatic tax hikes that cannot be stopped by voters.

wait - that's actually the game plan of communism and totalitarianism.

carry on, comrade!
 
We're certainly aware by now of your unflinching belief in the ability of bureaucrats to always do the right thing...properly. What's less obvious is the reasons for your irrepressible faith...
 
Everybody likes to be the hero and cut taxes, but they lack the integrity to cut spending across the board to offset the decrease in revenue.
Yes, and you could say the same thing the other way around. Everyone likes to be the hero and enhance spending programs, but they lack the integrity to raise taxes across the board to offset the increase in spending.
 
Way to cut right through @Arkady's tiresome Marxist, centralized-government claptrap propaganda and get right to the point!
You failed to understand what I wrote. Try harder. My post was symmetrical. I referred both to the possibility of automatic spending cuts to stack the deck for smaller government, and automatic tax hikes to stack the deck for bigger government, and then discussed the possibility of using both methods to meet in the middle, to allow for a balanced budget amendment without stacking the deck in either direction.

When someone posts a piece that discusses policy substance, the mindless partisans here aren't quite sure how to handle it. They desperately want to use it as an opportunity to launch personal attacks and to caricature their opponents as marxists, fascists, or what have you. Sadly, few rise above that instinct.
 
We're certainly aware by now of your unflinching belief in the ability of bureaucrats to always do the right thing...properly. What's less obvious is the reasons for your irrepressible faith...
Did you have any response to the substance of what I wrote, or are you content to simply use it as a launching point for free-form personal attacks?
 
Did you have any response to the substance of what I wrote, or are you content to simply use it as a launching point for free-form personal attacks?

I didn't attack you, I simply questioned your beliefs. If we can no longer do that here, it will render this site uninhabitable...
 
Given the possibility of a Constitutional Convention to pass a balanced budget amendment, would you favor it?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._teaming_up_to_call_a_new_constitutional.html

For me, it comes down to the details. I think it's a popular idea among conservatives because they see it stacking the deck in favor of their own vision of a small, weak government. Basically, pass popular tax cuts and then, when the columns don't add up, automatic spending cuts kick in, even if the cuts are unpopular enough that they'd never have passed democratically.

However, it would be theoretically possible to set the idea up to stack the deck in the opposite direction. Instead of automatic spending cuts kicking in to bring spending down to revenues, automatic tax hikes could kick in to bring revenues up to spending. Understandably, the conservatives wouldn't like this, because liberals could use it to bring about larger, stronger government: pass popular spending programs, then when the columns don't add up, automatic tax increases kick in, even if these increases are unpopular enough that they'd never have passed democratically.

In theory, you could middle-ground it. In the event of a mismatch between revenues and spending, automatic spending cuts and automatic tax hikes both kick in, designed to meet half-way. That way the amendment could not be used to stack the deck either way -- there'd be a genuinely democratic fight about the proper size and role of government.

Another issue is how you deal with situations where a deficit really is needed. For example, what about wartime? Should we really discipline ourselves with "pay as you go" during a war? We'd never have won independence or survived the war of 1812 or preserved the union with that rule. If we're unable to borrow and adversaries are, we're at a distinct disadvantage. Yet, you wouldn't want wars that aren't existential threats to create a blank checkbook. We blew trillions of dollars on a dumb whim in Iraq, and a little fiscal discipline to steer us away from that mistake would have been nice.

Standard economic theory also argues you should run a deficit during recessions and the first part of recoveries, and then offset that by running surpluses in other times. And demographic bulges can create situations where you might want to borrow in some periods and run surpluses in others. Special buying opportunities also would justify borrowing (e.g., to finance the Louisiana Purchase or the purchase of Alaska), and so could other investments that would create long-term returns.

One idea to deal with all this would be some sort of super-majority voting rules allowing for deficits and surpluses. But, that keeps it a highly politicized matter. You might instead create a mechanism for some nonpartisan group, insulated from day-to-day politics, to set the yearly deficit or surplus based on various factors, similar to how the Fed sets money supply. However, given the way right-wing heads explode when Fed control of money supply is mentioned, I doubt that will be a popular idea.

What do others here think?


I would say an ammendment that doesn't allow the debt to get out of hand like tie it to GDP maybe.
 
I didn't attack you, I simply questioned your beliefs.
Incorrect. You said "We're certainly aware by now of your unflinching belief in the ability of bureaucrats to always do the right thing...properly. What's less obvious is the reasons for your irrepressible faith..." That's not a question, it's an assertion -- an assertion that is demonstrably false. You know quite well that I have often criticized bureaucrats for doing the wrong thing. For example, I criticized the Fed for raising interest rates prematurely, at a time when inflation remained below their own target and unemployment was above the "full employment" level. That's proof that I don't have an unflinching belief that bureaucrats will always do the right thing, and you were aware of it. But, you like to attack people personally with falsehoods, and so you went with that, rather than addressing the substance of what I had posted.
 
Incorrect. You said "We're certainly aware by now of your unflinching belief in the ability of bureaucrats to always do the right thing...properly. What's less obvious is the reasons for your irrepressible faith..." That's not a question, it's an assertion -- an assertion that is demonstrably false. You know quite well that I have often criticized bureaucrats for doing the wrong thing. For example, I criticized the Fed for raising interest rates prematurely, at a time when inflation remained below their own target and unemployment was above the "full employment" level. That's proof that I don't have an unflinching belief that bureaucrats will always do the right thing, and you were aware of it. But, you like to attack people personally with falsehoods, and so you went with that, rather than addressing the substance of what I had posted.

But yet you support ever more government interfering with ever more of the economy. Can you not understand my dilemma with taking your posts at face vale?
 
I would say an ammendment that doesn't allow the debt to get out of hand like tie it to GDP maybe.
Interesting idea. Where would you set that debt/GDP cap? During WWII, we let federal debt get to about 120% of GDP. I'm not sure if that was "out of hand" or not, since it was a level at which we were able to grow our way out of the debt, even while continuing to run deficits nearly every year during the following decades.

I think if we were to go with a balanced budget amendment, I would want it to be more of a year-to-year thing, since otherwise it's not effective at all in eras when we're not close to that debt/GDP cap. For example, it would do nothing to prevent the kind of reckless tax cutting we saw in the Reagan and Bush years, assuming the cap was well above the ratio at those times.
 
But yet you support ever more government interfering with ever more of the economy. Can you not understand my dilemma with taking your posts at face vale?
No. As I've explained, I believe there's a sweet spot where government size is optimized relative to the economy. So, I don't favor "ever more government." If we were above where I believe that sweet spot lies, I'd want government to be shrunk. For example, I think Denmark's government is too big and interventionist and that they'd do better, as a society, with some government shrinkage, long term. It's just that I think, right now, that the US is below that sweet spot.

In theory, the structure of this analysis shouldn't be controversial, even though we can disagree on the details. I would think that just about everyone, if being honest, would agree that there is some optimal public-private mix. And once you accept that such am optimal mix exists, then those above the mix should cut government and those below it grow it. It should simply be a question of what the optimal mix is.

But, unfortunately, that whole mode of analysis is a fundamentally practical one, and thus isn't engaging for most on the right, who approach the question more as a religious one, where you may as well be asking what the optimal balance between good and evil is. Just as a religious person will always say less evil is better, a devotee of the quasi-religion of right-wing economics will say that no matter where things stand, even smaller and less interventionist government will be better. That's why they have so much trouble engaging substantively.
 
No. As I've explained, I believe there's a sweet spot where government size is optimized relative to the economy. So, I don't favor "ever more government." If we were above where I believe that sweet spot lies, I'd want government to be shrunk. For example, I think Denmark's government is too big and interventionist and that they'd do better, as a society, with some government shrinkage, long term. It's just that I think, right now, that the US is below that sweet spot.

In theory, the structure of this analysis shouldn't be controversial, even though we can disagree on the details. I would think that just about everyone, if being honest, would agree that there is some optimal public-private mix. And once you accept that such am optimal mix exists, then those above the mix should cut government and those below it grow it. It should simply be a question of what the optimal mix is.

But, unfortunately, that whole mode of analysis is a fundamentally practical one, and thus isn't engaging for most on the right, who approach the question more as a religious one, where you may as well be asking what the optimal balance between good and evil is. Just as a religious person will always say less evil is better, a devotee of the quasi-religion of right-wing economics will say that no matter where things stand, even smaller and less interventionist government will be better. That's why they have so much trouble engaging substantively.

But you already suggest it doesn't always do such a great job. And the American people agree with you:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-hate-the-u-s-government-more-than-ever/

Yet you keep talking (seems like endlessly) about the other stuff it should do and the additional taxes it should extract to pay for it.

You seem like the kind of person who likes to have it both ways. On the one hand, you can't be criticized for supporting big government when it makes so many bad mistakes, but on the other hand you want it to do so much more.

This is exemplary of the leftist political agenda, always wanting to escape criticism for its current policy failures, while simultaneously telling us what all else we should do. It's rather irritating...
 
But you already suggest it doesn't always do such a great job. And the American people agree with you:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-hate-the-u-s-government-more-than-ever/

The issue is whether it does a better job than the alternative. We can all get together and say we hate the government, if you like. We can have a nice Orwellian two minute hate about it, if it makes you feel better. But then the issue comes down to whether we're better off with a given program or not. The answer won't always go either way. Some programs will be worse than nothing. Some, despite their flaws, will be an improvement. But, again, that whole way of thinking about is a practical one, based on real-world costs and benefits. Right-wingers too often instead think of it in quasi-religious terms, and imagine that less government is always better.

This is exemplary of the leftist political agenda, always wanting to escape criticism for its current policy failures, while simultaneously telling us what all else we should do. It's rather irritating...

I'm happy to discuss policy failures all you want. There have been many. Heck, you just have to open up the Pentagon budget to find page after page of billion-dollar boondoggles, and anyone who lived through the radically counter-productive and hyper-expensive Iraq invasion is only too aware of government policy failures. All those things are legitimate targets of criticism, and there are many more. But it would be irrational to conclude that because government has screwed some stuff up we're better off without it, or even that we're always better off shrinking it. It would be as irrational as thinking that because it's done some things right it should take over everything.
 
Interesting idea. Where would you set that debt/GDP cap? During WWII, we let federal debt get to about 120% of GDP. I'm not sure if that was "out of hand" or not, since it was a level at which we were able to grow our way out of the debt, even while continuing to run deficits nearly every year during the following decades.

I think if we were to go with a balanced budget amendment, I would want it to be more of a year-to-year thing, since otherwise it's not effective at all in eras when we're not close to that debt/GDP cap. For example, it would do nothing to prevent the kind of reckless tax cutting we saw in the Reagan and Bush years, assuming the cap was well above the ratio at those times.

I think 120% was able to be grown out of because of technology and manufacturing. I am not sure unless we were to dominate the global economy if we could ever grow out of 120% again. I think it would have to be much less.
 
a leftists dream - automatic tax hikes that cannot be stopped by voters.

wait - that's actually the game plan of communism and totalitarianism.

carry on, comrade!
The Democrat Party is just a breath away from being the Democrat Socialist Party. Their comrade Bernie wants it so even if he has to go full-bore Communist to make it happen.
 
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