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Secession

Arkady

President
As was the case in the 19th century, talk of secession normally comes from southern, rural, conservative whites:

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/01/chr...confederate_talk_grows_louder_at_the_fringes/

I've always found that odd, since if there was a secession, along red-state/blue-state lines, it seems almost certain it would turn out better for the blue states.

As most people know, red-states are much more likely to be net federal tax dollar leeches than blue states. The federal budget represents a net subsidy of "Red America" by "Blue America," and if that flow of funds were halted, it would mean a windfall for Blue America and sudden hardship for Red America. Using 2012 presidential election outcomes to designate "red state" and "blue state,' "Red America" collectively received $165.792 billion more in federal expenditures than it pays in federal taxes, using the most recent budget data available (2005). "Blue America" received $74.191 billion LESS in federal expenditures than it pays in taxes:

http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-taxes-paid-vs-federal-spending-received-state-1981-2005

Yet, even without considering the impact of ending that leeching by the red states from the blue states, Blue America would be markedly better off than Red America following a secession. First, Blue America would be much larger (about 200 million citizens vs. 115.5 million), with an economy over twice as large. And it would be much richer. Median household income of Blue America would be 16% higher than for Red America. If you then account for the ending of net flows of federal funds from blue to red states, Blue America would be roughly one-quarter ahead of red (I'd need a precise household count by state to do that calculation).

It's not just that Blue America would be richer, either. It would also be better off sociologically, in terms of less crime, lower teen pregnancy, lower obesity, higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality, better academic test scores, and so on. For example, the weighted average murder rate for Blue America is 4.4, versus 5.3 for Red America, meaning someone in Red America would be about 20% more likely to be murdered than someone in Blue America. Blue America would also have the headquarters of the vast majority of Fortune 500 companies, most of the elite universities in the country, most of the elite cultural offerings (the best museums, ballets, symphonies, etc.), and even a disproportionate share of the best sports franchises, as well as being the location of most movie and TV studios.

If secession were to happen along red-state/blue-state lines, the resulting Blue America would remain an economic and cultural powerhouse, while climbing up the international rankings when it came to socioeconomic well-being of its citizens. Red America, by comparison, would fall to an international prominence somewhere between Japan and Mexico, while sliding still farther in most international rankings. It's odd that secession talk isn't more popular on the left, and less so on the right.
 
As was the case in the 19th century, talk of secession normally comes from southern, rural, conservative whites:

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/01/chr...confederate_talk_grows_louder_at_the_fringes/

I've always found that odd, since if there was a secession, along red-state/blue-state lines, it seems almost certain it would turn out better for the blue states.

As most people know, red-states are much more likely to be net federal tax dollar leeches than blue states. The federal budget represents a net subsidy of "Red America" by "Blue America," and if that flow of funds were halted, it would mean a windfall for Blue America and sudden hardship for Red America. Using 2012 presidential election outcomes to designate "red state" and "blue state,' "Red America" collectively received $165.792 billion more in federal expenditures than it pays in federal taxes, using the most recent budget data available (2005). "Blue America" received $74.191 billion LESS in federal expenditures than it pays in taxes:

http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-taxes-paid-vs-federal-spending-received-state-1981-2005

Yet, even without considering the impact of ending that leeching by the red states from the blue states, Blue America would be markedly better off than Red America following a secession. First, Blue America would be much larger (about 200 million citizens vs. 115.5 million), with an economy over twice as large. And it would be much richer. Median household income of Blue America would be 16% higher than for Red America. If you then account for the ending of net flows of federal funds from blue to red states, Blue America would be roughly one-quarter ahead of red (I'd need a precise household count by state to do that calculation).

It's not just that Blue America would be richer, either. It would also be better off sociologically, in terms of less crime, lower teen pregnancy, lower obesity, higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality, better academic test scores, and so on. For example, the weighted average murder rate for Blue America is 4.4, versus 5.3 for Red America, meaning someone in Red America would be about 20% more likely to be murdered than someone in Blue America. Blue America would also have the headquarters of the vast majority of Fortune 500 companies, most of the elite universities in the country, most of the elite cultural offerings (the best museums, ballets, symphonies, etc.), and even a disproportionate share of the best sports franchises, as well as being the location of most movie and TV studios.

If secession were to happen along red-state/blue-state lines, the resulting Blue America would remain an economic and cultural powerhouse, while climbing up the international rankings when it came to socioeconomic well-being of its citizens. Red America, by comparison, would fall to an international prominence somewhere between Japan and Mexico, while sliding still farther in most international rankings. It's odd that secession talk isn't more popular on the left, and less so on the right.

Except, of course, the well-publicized secession movement in California.

You need to get out more...
 
Why do folks even talk about this shit except for the fun of it. It aint gonna happen until we have a complete collapse of this once great nation. It does look like it may be sooner rather than later though
It could conceivably happen. It's not like England had to collapse for the colonies to secede, or that the US of the mid 19th century had to collapse before the confederates seceded. There have been a lot of more recent breakups that also happened in places that weren't collapsing -- like the split of Slovakia and the Czech Republic. It's just a matter of building up enough consensus for it.

But, I'll admit it's unlikely to happen any time soon. People may bitch and moan about the government, but things are going pretty well, overall, in the last five years. Unemployment is down, deficits are down, stocks are up, real GDP per capita is up, the number of Americans dying in the middle east has been greatly reduced, Bin Laden's dead, there's been no major terrorist against US interests, etc. Things are probably going too well for people to risk rocking the boat by splitting the nation.

But it is fun to speculate about. I'd love to know how high the more advanced parts of the country could climb without the deadweight of places like the Deep South. And it would be interesting to know just how far the conservative areas would plummet if left without many liberals to save them from their own idiocy.
 
it's foolish to make up a situation where every single red state succedes.

However, if it were just Texas, here is why it would serve Texas' interests to succeed from the Union.

1. The government of Texas has low-debt to GDP ratio. Their GDP-Debt ratio is only 19%. This is sustainable. Currently the US’s gdp-to-debt ratio is 73%. According to projects, the US economy is only going to grow deeper into debt.

2. Texas is a net giver of tax revenue to the national government, while other states are tax takers.

3. Texas as a state does not rack up a trade deficit. It actually has a trade surplus of $100 billion.

4. It is not a landlocked State, which allows it trade with other countries through ports. It also has a neighboring country that is not the US, Mexico.

5. it has the ability to defend itself. It has 13 military bases.

6. It also has a strong economy able to sustain itself. It has a powerful agricultural, aeronautics, computer, energy and healthcare sector.

7. It is the largest exporting state in the nation, exporting $192.2 billion worth of goods and services.

8. It has a low unemployment rate of only 6.1%compared to the national average of 7.9%

9. It’s the second largest economy in the US, with a GDP of over $1.3 trillion and GDP per capita of $45,940

10. It also has a large enough population to defend itself. Texas currently has a population of 26,059,203, which would place it as the 46th out of 242nd largest nations if it seceded.
 
It could conceivably happen. It's not like England had to collapse for the colonies to secede, or that the US of the mid 19th century had to collapse before the confederates seceded. There have been a lot of more recent breakups that also happened in places that weren't collapsing -- like the split of Slovakia and the Czech Republic. It's just a matter of building up enough consensus for it.

But, I'll admit it's unlikely to happen any time soon. People may bitch and moan about the government, but things are going pretty well, overall, in the last five years. Unemployment is down, deficits are down, stocks are up, real GDP per capita is up, the number of Americans dying in the middle east has been greatly reduced, Bin Laden's dead, there's been no major terrorist against US interests, etc. Things are probably going too well for people to risk rocking the boat by splitting the nation.

But it is fun to speculate about. I'd love to know how high the more advanced parts of the country could climb without the deadweight of places like the Deep South. And it would be interesting to know just how far the conservative areas would plummet if left without many liberals to save them from their own idiocy.
It might just end up being a purge.
 
it's foolish to make up a situation where every single red state succedes.

However, if it were just Texas, here is why it would serve Texas' interests to succeed from the Union.

1. The government of Texas has low-debt to GDP ratio. Their GDP-Debt ratio is only 19%. This is sustainable. Currently the US’s gdp-to-debt ratio is 73%. According to projects, the US economy is only going to grow deeper into debt.

2. Texas is a net giver of tax revenue to the national government, while other states are tax takers.

3. Texas as a state does not rack up a trade deficit. It actually has a trade surplus of $100 billion.

4. It is not a landlocked State, which allows it trade with other countries through ports. It also has a neighboring country that is not the US, Mexico.

5. it has the ability to defend itself. It has 13 military bases.

6. It also has a strong economy able to sustain itself. It has a powerful agricultural, aeronautics, computer, energy and healthcare sector.

7. It is the largest exporting state in the nation, exporting $192.2 billion worth of goods and services.

8. It has a low unemployment rate of only 6.1%compared to the national average of 7.9%

9. It’s the second largest economy in the US, with a GDP of over $1.3 trillion and GDP per capita of $45,940

10. It also has a large enough population to defend itself. Texas currently has a population of 26,059,203, which would place it as the 46th out of 242nd largest nations if it seceded.

The Military Bases belong to The United States, not to Texas.

Regardless, there is no mechanism for secession from the US.

You guys all love the Pledge right? Indivisible...is what you pledge to.
 
it's foolish to make up a situation where every single red state succedes.

However, if it were just Texas, here is why it would serve Texas' interests to succeed from the Union.

1. The government of Texas has low-debt to GDP ratio. Their GDP-Debt ratio is only 19%. This is sustainable. Currently the US’s gdp-to-debt ratio is 73%. According to projects, the US economy is only going to grow deeper into debt.

2. Texas is a net giver of tax revenue to the national government, while other states are tax takers.

3. Texas as a state does not rack up a trade deficit. It actually has a trade surplus of $100 billion.

4. It is not a landlocked State, which allows it trade with other countries through ports. It also has a neighboring country that is not the US, Mexico.

5. it has the ability to defend itself. It has 13 military bases.

6. It also has a strong economy able to sustain itself. It has a powerful agricultural, aeronautics, computer, energy and healthcare sector.

7. It is the largest exporting state in the nation, exporting $192.2 billion worth of goods and services.

8. It has a low unemployment rate of only 6.1%compared to the national average of 7.9%

9. It’s the second largest economy in the US, with a GDP of over $1.3 trillion and GDP per capita of $45,940

10. It also has a large enough population to defend itself. Texas currently has a population of 26,059,203, which would place it as the 46th out of 242nd largest nations if it seceded.

Texas would do OK for a while, while oil supplies are OK and oil prices are high. But it sure wouldn't be a place I'd want to live after secession. Economies built around oil tend to favor tyrannical governments and huge gaps in wealth.

Also, the national unemployment rate isn't 7.9%. It's 6.3%.
 
The Military Bases belong to The United States, not to Texas.

Regardless, there is no mechanism for secession from the US.

You guys all love the Pledge right? Indivisible...is what you pledge to.
An amendment would allow secession. That would take a wide-ranging majority to approve, but could be done peacefully. It could entail payment by the seceding states for the federal assets (national parks, military facilities, government buildings, etc.) that they take with them, and also payments to them for assets they leave behind (such as some sort of payout for amounts their residents paid into Social Security). It would be complicated, but it could be worked out, along the lines of the division of the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
 
As was the case in the 19th century, talk of secession normally comes from southern, rural, conservative whites:

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/01/chr...confederate_talk_grows_louder_at_the_fringes/

I've always found that odd, since if there was a secession, along red-state/blue-state lines, it seems almost certain it would turn out better for the blue states.

As most people know, red-states are much more likely to be net federal tax dollar leeches than blue states. The federal budget represents a net subsidy of "Red America" by "Blue America," and if that flow of funds were halted, it would mean a windfall for Blue America and sudden hardship for Red America. Using 2012 presidential election outcomes to designate "red state" and "blue state,' "Red America" collectively received $165.792 billion more in federal expenditures than it pays in federal taxes, using the most recent budget data available (2005). "Blue America" received $74.191 billion LESS in federal expenditures than it pays in taxes:

http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-taxes-paid-vs-federal-spending-received-state-1981-2005

Yet, even without considering the impact of ending that leeching by the red states from the blue states, Blue America would be markedly better off than Red America following a secession. First, Blue America would be much larger (about 200 million citizens vs. 115.5 million), with an economy over twice as large. And it would be much richer. Median household income of Blue America would be 16% higher than for Red America. If you then account for the ending of net flows of federal funds from blue to red states, Blue America would be roughly one-quarter ahead of red (I'd need a precise household count by state to do that calculation).

It's not just that Blue America would be richer, either. It would also be better off sociologically, in terms of less crime, lower teen pregnancy, lower obesity, higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality, better academic test scores, and so on. For example, the weighted average murder rate for Blue America is 4.4, versus 5.3 for Red America, meaning someone in Red America would be about 20% more likely to be murdered than someone in Blue America. Blue America would also have the headquarters of the vast majority of Fortune 500 companies, most of the elite universities in the country, most of the elite cultural offerings (the best museums, ballets, symphonies, etc.), and even a disproportionate share of the best sports franchises, as well as being the location of most movie and TV studios.

If secession were to happen along red-state/blue-state lines, the resulting Blue America would remain an economic and cultural powerhouse, while climbing up the international rankings when it came to socioeconomic well-being of its citizens. Red America, by comparison, would fall to an international prominence somewhere between Japan and Mexico, while sliding still farther in most international rankings. It's odd that secession talk isn't more popular on the left, and less so on the right.

Most people certainly do not think the matter through when there is mention nade of leaving the Federal Union. It can and does do more things on a larger scale and in a more definitive way than a fractured Union could possibly do.

However your characterization of the Blue states as good living is a bit skewed.
There's plenty of subsidized poverty in Mass, New York, Connecticut and so on.
Just because that's where most of the nation's CEO's make their corporate office is no reason to ignore the real living situation in those places and it is indeed dismal for the average blue collar family and getting worse. The North East specifically is saddled with the unsustainable growth of pension liablity. It is bankrupting one commuinty after another.

Additionally I think you vastly underestimate the self sufficieny of Southern communities. You may not be able to examine a carpenter's skills on the Wall Street index...but free from Federal Persecution, taxation and regulation I submit to you that the South would flourish much more quickly per capita that would the north.

JO
 
An amendment would allow secession. That would take a wide-ranging majority to approve, but could be done peacefully. It could entail payment by the seceding states for the federal assets (national parks, military facilities, government buildings, etc.) that they take with them, and also payments to them for assets they leave behind (such as some sort of payout for amounts their residents paid into Social Security). It would be complicated, but it could be worked out, along the lines of the division of the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

I don't see such an amendment as a possibility because of the reasons you mentioned.

Random thought: Texas has 1,254 miles of the 1,954 miles of border with Mexico. That would massively alter the task of the US Border Control.

In re: secession, I do see a regular confusion between states dividing into new states and states leaving the union. Nearly all of the states have regional divisions that keep talk of dividing alive. North Jersey, South Jersey. California. Washington. Oregon. Maryland's Eastern Shore and western counties both speak of it regularly, but in these instances, they wish to stay in the USA.
 
- LMAO - we're supporting all these deadbeat red states now -

How would you manage to stay a float and support the massive federal welfare system? That 17 trillion dollar debt doesn't go away because some states left to union those states that stayed with the federal government would still have to pay for that. So how could you do it?
 
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